Family Final Four

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fat little fingers		#1201	[-]
Posts: 6272 (10/15/09 8:38 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I forget if yall consider the non-broadcast scenes, Since FF4 is about the real behavior by the players and not the edited story, the extra videos have always been fine to include. I can't think of any season, though, in which the insider videos affected the FF4 roles. Daughters remained Daughters and Eccentrics Eccentrics. Yasmin and Shambo both clearly not a good family fit with their tribe, but I'm wondering if that is a cultural misfit, not fundamental eccentricity. Yasmin was hampered by her grammar, perhaps, but she also didn't make it easy for anyone to get close to her. So many of her comments were narcissistic, ie., she didn't seem to consider anyone other than her own viewpoint. Shambo seems to have an age issue with most of her tribe. It's an age misfit, "Family"-wise, I think. She's not being Mother nurturer/confidant or Father provider and she's been shunned as too old to be Sister. Not sure what role she would have with the Foa Foans, but Sister seems a stretch, even though she felt they were older and "got" her.
Lady V		#1202	[-]
Posts: 745 (10/15/09 10:25 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I'm still struck with Shambo. She's a fascinating character. "Shambo is just a complete Gilligan...she's socially awkward," says a daughter. Another daughter (Monica) says, without Shambo there she "would just do nothing and feel FINE about it!" Shambo says, as she leads them all, "Everyone go left behind me - we'll all make it to the fire." A daughter asks her to put the pot on/off the fire and she responds, "I'm doing that right now, darlin'" And she's the only one encouraging the other tribe members by name in the challenges--and she calls them each "baby." She goes to Galu and asks for a group hug, which they give her. I agree with Beefcake's impression that if she went to Foa Foa, she'd be the M there with Russell the Hateful as the E. To me, she's a tough mom, using those endearments (baby, darlin'), encouraging the kids to do their chores, cooking, looking after chickens imperfectly. I remember meeting moms like that growing up. I agree with Birdlady about the cultural considerations regarding Shambo (not so much Yasmin, who was verbally violent.) Shambo's perceived Eness may result from the unwillingness of the Galuvians to be mothered. She's certainly on the wrong tribe. Laura is doing nothing motherly that I can see at this point (and neither, on Foa Foa, is Liz). Then we've got the "F," Russell the no-longer-sweet. My goodness! Shambo must pay by going to Foa Foa because she lost a chicken. (Has he done anything to find them food? Did he work at tending the chickens or get them to produce eggs? Did anyone spend much time looking for the lost chicken?) He seems to firmly and loudly lay down laws and issue proclamations in order to cover the fact that he been a weak leader. He says to Dave, "You're a grown-ass man!" Not really! Dave is a 7-year-old boy. :) We saw some of Brett--still looked like a son to me. The Foa Foans look like Lord of the Flies material this ep, dripping in the rain and miserable. Beefcake said they were parentless--yes, the Lost Boys again! Natalie says of Ashley "we're like sisters," and then votes her off. Mick was invisible practically, with Jaison being the one to compliment Liz on her IC performance. Ashley doesn't trust Liz-- making it less likely Liz is a M--have we ever had an M whom people didn't trust? The whole episode made me shiver. Welcome to BlakeB717 and Beefcake!
Stryme		#1203	[-]
Posts: 8 (10/16/09 7:30 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Mm, for me, nothing much changed this ep. Perhaps Dave steps up into F/M role starting fire, being valuble member of tribe?
birdlady		#1204	[-]
Posts: 2951 (10/16/09 7:37 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	The Foa Foans look like Lord of the Flies material this ep, dripping in the rain and miserable. The thought crossed my mind that if somehow all of production disappeared and these people really did have to survive on their own, FoFo would make it. There didn't seem to be animosity towards Ashley, just that they were out of food and were going to have to eat someone and the best chance for survival of the most people meant it was her.
Beefcake		#1205	[-]
Posts: 4291 (10/16/09 8:21 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	The cultural differences between Shambo and her tribe is a good point. Shambo is definitely working class, and that can definitely cause a rift with people from more privileged backgrounds. It might also explain her connection with Eric. If I recall correctly, he comes from a similar background, so Shambo may remind him of the women he grew up with (she certainly does for me!) After last night's episode, I'm more convinced that Shambo is an E waiting to be an M. The editors obviously WANT us to like her, just as they want us to NOT like Russell H, even though (after the first week's shenanigans) he's just playing an excellent strategic and social game. They could have given Shambo the "dumbass edit", but instead we get a "lovable outsider" who gets punished by the authoritarian F on her tribe and gets a group hug(!??!?) from the other tribe. "Hey kids! Mom's home!" Russell S gets worse each week. Punishing our lovable Shambo even when she begs for mercy? And there is a sinister "Insider" clip I saw elsewhere in which he lectures and threatens Monica after the Yaz boot with a psychotic look on his face, all the while waving a machete at her! I was scared!!! And the scene with Russell and Dave in which Dave knew he could build fire better than Russell, but didn't want to step on his toes reminded me of a teenage son coming of age -- knowing he could "beat" his father, but being afraid to show it. And the final stroke of Russell saying "You're a grown ass man!" (with an implied "unless I tell you otherwise!") to the reluctant Dave sounded exactly like what a father would say to a teenage son. Maybe we can look at Galu as a tribe of older teenagers who are embarrassed by their uncool mom (Shambo) and itching to stand up to (but still intimidated by) their authoritarian father? You know that tribe is waiting to implode. I'm just waiting for someone to suggest throwing a challenge . . . .
Lady V		#1206	[-]
Posts: 746 (10/16/09 9:05 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	birdlady wrote: The Foa Foans look like Lord of the Flies material this ep, dripping in the rain and miserable. The thought crossed my mind that if somehow all of production disappeared and these people really did have to survive on their own, FoFo would make it. There didn't seem to be animosity towards Ashley, just that they were out of food and were going to have to eat someone and the best chance for survival of the most people meant it was her. Hahahahahaha! I love this. Thanks for the laugh, birdlady! Exactly! I can almost see R the H sharpening the knives, licking his lips...brrr. Beefcake wrote: After last night's episode, I'm more convinced that Shambo is an E waiting to be an M...we get a "lovable outsider" who gets punished by the authoritarian F on her tribe and gets a group hug(!??!?) from the other tribe. "Hey kids! Mom's home!" I have her like this in my mind, too. It will be really interesting to see what happens at merge or switch or whatever is coming soon. Maybe we can look at Galu as a tribe of older teenagers who are embarrassed by their uncool mom (Shambo) and itching to stand up to (but still intimidated by) their authoritarian father? I agree.
Olmec Donald		#1207	[-]
Posts: 875 (10/17/09 2:56 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Beefcake wrote: Maybe we can look at Galu as a tribe of older teenagers who are embarrassed by their uncool mom (Shambo) and itching to stand up to (but still intimidated by) their authoritarian father? You know that tribe is waiting to implode. I'm just waiting for someone to suggest throwing a challenge . . . . I agree with this statement. Galu is probably going to collapse post-merge with all the teenagers bickering. I'm about ready to call a provisional FF4: M/E - Shambo D - Natalie S - Jaison (if he doesn't quit, otherwise it's Mick) E - Russell the Hateful Actually, this possible FF4 looks a bit like China. I'm tipping the son will take the million again. Last Edited By: Olmec Donald 10/21/09 3:15 AM. Edited 1 times.
fat little fingers		#1208	[-]
Posts: 6275 (10/17/09 12:07 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	The thought crossed my mind that if somehow all of production disappeared and these people really did have to survive on their own, FoFo would make it. Yes, they seem to show more of the maturity that Shambo first referred to. They voted out the weakest, even if she was liked, because they are desperate to stop the IC losses. LV, your comments about Shambo are great. I'm now in the Mother camp for her.
Lady V	quite a family episode	#1209	[-]
Posts: 747 (10/22/09 10:14 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	"The Man Test," indeed! We begin with Mick, our weak father, who envies daughter Ashley (gasp!) for being able to go home. Then we get Russell S. working like crazy around the camp to Keep The Fire Burning. Then, Jaison the son is shown in misery, with RH the bizarre essentially proclaiming, "nothing hurts me--the more it hurts them, the better it is for me, and the better I like it!" E. Then we have Russell S. at the ocean, again, looking like Jesus the Fisher of Men (!). He says, "my family depends on me to be the strong one," when they tell him he has to leave the game. (I thought he did a great F job leaving the game, with his comments when being loaded into the van, and at the end.) As for the women, it's quite clear Liz is no M. She demonstrated no compassion at all for Russell S., with concern only for her own fate, and saying to Natalie, "High five, Sister!" and "We're one big family." Then we have Laura, who has never struck me as motherly, except for her age. John says Monica and Laura have this "mother-daughter-sister-sister" thing going on, and "Laura will be severely weakened without Monica." Mothers are not weakened by their daughters. Laura is a D. It's John who proclaims "Shambo is the leader." Shambo says, "I'm the 45-year-old lady here that will not quit," and is the only one who says she feels sad about papa Russell S. leaving: "I feel really sad." Interesting how the sons all begin to support her now that daddy is gone... FF4 most likely winners are always the parents: Mick (weak F), Shambo (M) (and for those of you who still think Laura is M, Laura). Eccentrics have never won Survivor, so the person with the least chance of winning is Russell the Hateful. No F battle this time, after all. Looks like Erik, as eldest son, will try to unseat Mick in the post-merge battle--Galu has lost their dad, and they are mad and ready to rumble! They may also fall apart with grief... Edited to add: I found this episode upsetting. How did it take so long for Jeff to see what was happening to Russell S.? There were moments when I actually thought he was dead! If the survivors also saw what we did, they might really be traumatized in the days to come. Last Edited By: Lady V 10/22/09 10:16 PM. Edited 1 times.
Beefcake		#1210	[-]
Posts: 4384 (10/23/09 7:21 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I don't have much to add to Lady V's excellent analysis. I think the Galu dynamics are more clear now: a group of sons competing with a group of daughters, being held in check my Papa Russell. Now that he's gone, we'll see what happens, but I expect that tribe will start tearing itself apart. I still don't see Shambo as any kind of M on Galu -- notice all the comments from Erik about how dim she is and how she needs to be kept on a "need to know" basis, even about her own potential boot! That's not an M, that's an E outsider. I laughed out loud at the comment by (I think) Dave about Monica and Laura being mother-daughter, and then quickly correcting himself to sister-sister. Over at Foa Foa, they just seem lost. I saw Russell H.'s talk with Jaison to be more of an awkward pep talk than a put down. I found this "Insider" clip in which Russell H. talks about the "family" dynamics of Foa Foa, which you all might find interesting. I read it as Russell saying, "I want to be an E, but I'm being forced into an F role right now (but that will change once we merge)". Last Edited By: Beefcake 10/23/09 7:42 AM. Edited 1 times.
birdlady		#1211	[-]
Posts: 2979 (10/23/09 8:16 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I think we haven't seen much of Laura as M because we just haven't seen much of Laura. What little we have M-like. One of those Ms who concerns herself with the girls and the young boys, leaving the older boys to F. The whole episode was pretty twisted. If Sweet Russell had died, that wouldn't be Probst's fault, that would be our fault for watching for 19 seasons. However, since we did, I thought there were lots of interesting family dynamics, especially in the promo for next week. FoFo is still a creepy but functional family. Liz and Natalie explicity acknowledge that the family only needs one daughter, so one of them is superfluous. Jaison and Mick have clear roles, although each is a failure at them. Bad Russell showed some signs of F-providing as well as M-nurturing (in the ocean), but privately assured us he was still the Anti. So a strong unit there, once they lose a woman, although not individuals strongly filling their roles. So they should have a good chance to F4 as a unit (or F5 with post-merge mom Shambo), but if they split they should be out pretty quick.. Galu started the episode still a big ill-defined blob. Once their F departed, we see them attempting to form nuclear groupings: Erik (F), Shambo (M-ish), John (S), Dave (S) Laura (M), Monica (D), Kelly (D), Brett (S) Alas, while culturally this might be comfortable, neither is a balanced family. Then, we see Laura and Russell together, either post-merge or through an individual camp visit. Laura rejects the weak F, and goes straight for the outwardly strong F, Russell. Only we know, he's either E or the worst F ever or the anti-M. Not looking good for Laura and her kids. And even worse for Erik's bunch. (Very comparable to Fiji's band of idiot brothers, Mookie/Rocky/Edgardo/other latino, with what's-her-face) They've rejected all available Ds. Their only hope as a family is to force Shambo to be M so that Dave can let his E flag fly, kind of a long shot, espcially after the merge. So bizarrely, Family Final Four looks really good for outnumbered 2-1 FoFo.
MissScamper		#1212	[-]
Posts: 856 (10/23/09 10:50 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Lady V, I just read Jeff Probst's blog at EW. He says there was so much going on at once (challenge, survivors rolling the balls and working the maze, other survivors sitting out, etc.) on top of having Russell blindfolded so Jeff couldn't see his eyes, which all combined to make it very difficult for him to see immediately that there was something wrong. He says many times blindfolding them causes funny things to happen, and that it is normal for survivors to get very tired in challenges since they give everything they've got to win. But Jeff said medical always anticipates potential problems, and they knew dehydration could be a problem given the circumstances of a very physical challenge combined with the continuous rain. Fortunately Russell is ok now. Funny how only Shambo and Dave said they were sad/unhappy to see Russell leave. Beefcake, thanks for the Russell clip. I've always thought Russell is the E of the group, but now I'm changing my mind. I think he's turning into more of a Father, as he says himself. He's the daddy to this group, especially to Ashley. Which actually improves his chances of winning. Remember, WE see him saying nasty things about dumb and dumber blondes, but THEY don't. THEY don't know he was burning socks and dumping water out of canteens. THEY don't know he plans to discard them one by one. THEY see a provider who brings home the bananas and papayas. THEY see a daddy who gives encouragement when they are down. THEY don't see what we see until they watch the episode each Thursday night. Shambo is wavering between E and M, which means to me she doesn't win. If I can firmly designate her by now, she's not the winner. And I don't see any M in Laura, either. She's a D. No M this season! I think Erik will take over a leader for Galu and perhaps become their new F.
tmtomhJanet		#1213	[-]
Posts: 336 (10/23/09 6:19 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	That's an interesting thought on Evil Russ's father role, Miss Scamper. He was looking more like a provider this episode and if that's the way he keeps on appearing to the other castways he just may win this thing. I think Shambo wants to be the mom but the Galu bunch are just too focused on seeing her bumbling moves instead of all the ways she helps. Good Russell got a great edit last night as a positive father-figure who just overdid it. Too bad his body was weaker than his will.
Olmec Donald		#1214	[-]
Posts: 905 (10/24/09 7:36 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Both tribes this season now look like pretty pathetic families. Foa Foa has a bunch of people playing out of position, to use a soccer metaphor, but at least they have something resembling a nuclear family. Galu have nothing; they are a shambles after losing their F, just a bunch of polarized, sullen teenagers. Galu is going to end up eating itself come the merge. Most tribes from past seasons would have had strong enough family groupings to outlast Foa Foa, given how weak the men are there from an FF4 standpoint.
Lady V		#1215	[-]
Posts: 748 (10/26/09 12:36 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Wow! Excellent thoughts, everyone!! Beefcake, thank you for that clip. I think it should go down in the FF4 Hall of Fame (infamy?!); it makes me wonder if RH has ever seen this thread... When I watch the show, I imagine all the other FF4ers watching, too. It's nice to have this little community. ~:) Birdlady brings up a point that has been simmering for awhile, now. Is RH an E or an F? I'm with Beefcake on this one--he is trying to manipulate the way in which he is perceived, and that may work as long as the dim players dominate. However... people do not create us. We are who we are, independent of whether or not we are around others. That "who we are" has archetypal overtones which play themselves out in extremely stressful situations, like Survivor. I've been watchful the last week because the conditions are getting SO much worse out there this season, thus the archetypal F, M, S, D, Es should ever more clearly appear. What was that thing Obama said during the campaign? "You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig." Russell H is a pig, not a parent, no matter how much tap-dancing he does to be perceived as such. ;) The true person will emerge, and when that happens, if we called him an F, we'd have to switch him. Survivor's roles NEVER change. We can be unclear about them, but they just don't change, because they exemplify the essence of the person and the way they cope in family groups with stress. All of this malevolence and lack of empathy for his tribemates disqualifies him as a father. Perhaps we can make a new rule: sociopathic players are never parents (even the ones who are parents IRL aren't really parents). I'm holding out for Russell the Hateful as an E (what father would we name "the Hateful"?), tmtomhJanet, and those Es have never won. (At least not yet!) This is also why I'm still holding out for Shambo as M, but an unaccepted M. She's still doing the M behaviors, even though they are not appreciated/recognized. Kind of like a foster mom, or the head of group home. ;) I agree, though, that this role confusion hurts her chances to win. I agree with Olmec Donald (well with everyone, really)--this is a pathetic family season! Maybe when they merge the strongest roles will emerge, and they will coalesce into a healthier family grouping (we can always hope!). Thanks, MissScamper for the clarification about Jeff. (Birdlady's comment on that being our fault for watching for 19 seasons left me LOL!) I didn't consider the blindfold; makes sense. The brain thinks the exhausted one is going to sleep in the dark. Birdlady, what you said about the two mini-families in Galu was interesting: each mini-group would be seeking what they're missing. Does anyone have a fantasy FF4? That is, even if it's not likely to happen, who would the best F4 be from a FF4 perspective, do you all think? Well, this is a weird season, but it's got us all continuing to watch and scratch our heads--yippee!
Olmec Donald		#1216	[-]
Posts: 908 (10/26/09 6:39 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	The best possible FF4 needs at least one parent and at least one child, but there are no fathers left so it'll be M, S, D, E. The only true parent left is Shambo. Erik seems like the best fit for son, always fiercely competitive and trying to prove himself. Monica and Natalie look like the two best fits for daughter. Russell is more of a true E than Danger Dave. That'd be my ideal FF4 based on who's remaining.
Beefcake		#1217	[-]
Posts: 4451 (10/26/09 11:52 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	To add to LadyV's post, it seems to me everyone has two roles in a tribe (or in society): the one we want and the one we get. People are happiest and most productive when those two roles coincide. In real life, for instance, a naturally creative person or a natural leader may be stuck in a job or a family situation which prevents them from expressing and developing those traits -- they just don't fit into their circumstances of life. I think we're seeing something similar in Survivor. The reason Shambo and Russell H are problematic is that they are an M and an E whose tribes are forcing them to be something they are not. Shambo is trying to be a loving mom, but the Mean Girl alliance is ostracizing her, thus forcing her into the role of E. Similarly, Russell wants to play the game as an E, but his tribemates' laziness/attitude is forcing him to act like an F. I think the most interesting thing in that video is the disdain in Russell's voice when he talks about being the tribe's father. He hates it, but is being forced to act that way in order to ensure his own survival. So it seems to me that every tribe does NOT have to have parents, children and eccentrics. But a functional tribe (or alliance) has people filling the M/F, D/S and E slots. That's why both Galu and Foa Foa seem dysfunctional now. (I'll just add that I don't have the disdain for Russell H. that some of you seem to have. I rather like him, and if I were on Survivor I would be playing a similar game to his. I guess I'm a sociopath!!!)
tmtomhJanet		#1218	[-]
Posts: 337 (10/26/09 6:17 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Thanks for giving me hope, Lady V! A Russell win is just too icky to comtemplate. I keep hoping he won't last as long as Coach did last year but I don't see anyone taking him out before the merge. It will be interesting then to see if the young Galu sons paint a giant target on his back after the merge or turn on each other first. From the promo, I'm thinking we may end up with a mom and sons family (Shambo and the Galu boys) and a father and daughters one (evil Russ and as many girls as he can control). What a wacky season! Did we ever decide if Mick was a weak father or just another son? I'm not seeing a lot of leadership from him but then he might just be avoiding conflict with Russ.
birdlady		#1219	[-]
Posts: 2988 (10/26/09 6:48 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Does anyone have a fantasy FF4? That is, even if it's not likely to happen, who would the best F4 be from a FF4 perspective, do you all think Interesting question. It's hard to think about, because of the "not likely to happen part". However, the insight I have gotten so far from thinking about it is that Natalie is the best D. The other D-ish people only work in their present configuration, I think she would be the D regardless. So I guess that says that she's in a position where "the role she wants" and "the role she gets" coincide. This should reduce stress for her (as opposed to Bad Russell and Shambo, say). Which should give her more energy for scheming and backstabbing and practicing her jury speech. So Natalie ftw.
Lady V	Huh. The merge cometh.	#1220	[-]
Posts: 749 (10/29/09 10:21 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	This episode didn't do much for me. I'm really bored with Russell and his one-note confessionals, and he's still getting way too much airtime IMO. The merge arrives next week, and this is what I've got: F = Mick M = Shambo, Laura (all three are unconventional parents) E = Baby Russell (i.e., bam! bam! mommy is bad! I bite mommy! hahaha! bam! bam! daddy is stupid! I am King Baby!) S = Brett, John, Jaison, Erik (who sees himself as eldest), Dave (who is the youngest) (LOADS of sons) D = Natalie, Monica, Kelly There should be conflict between Erik and Mick, if Erik makes an elder son move to try to unseat the F. There should be conflicting camps between Shambo and Laura to resolve the M. Shambo may have the Foa Foans' loyalty over Laura, but there aren't many Foa Foans left. There are too many sons, so three of them, and at least one daughter, should be eliminated before F6. The Foa Foans are way down in numbers. The Galuvians would be foolish to eat their own at this stage. Not that they aren't foolish. :) I agree with birdlady and Olmec Donald's comments about Natalie (and Monica) looking best for D and Erik best for S. Sigh. Last Edited By: Lady V 10/29/09 10:25 PM. Edited 1 times.

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