So, females should always make all girl alliances going forward?

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tomash		#21	[-]
Posts: 631 (05/18/09 10:39 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Thailandsurvivor wrote: I wouldn't bash the female cast too much here. Sierra was a moron, but there were some good players this season. If Sierra was not a dumbass and Timbira was willing to join up together at the final 7, Debbie would be considered one of the best ~~female~~ players of all time. (I guess that is also depending on whether or not Erinn would side with Timbira, but she would be a moron to deny it.) Instead, Debbie was just a pawn to JT and Stephen. Erinn had a good grasp on the game as shown by how she saw her position on Timbira and flipped to better her position. Also, I don't care what JT and Stephen's reasons were, but her being saved at the final 4 was something very few players could accomplish. It reminded me of Fairplay surviving at the final 4. While not anywhere near as great since Erinn was still Taj's target, I don't think anyone saw her making the final three without winning immunity. Taj was doing pretty well for herself, but Stephen ended up siding with JT over her. Seeing how close the two of them were pre merge, I don't think Taj ever expected it. She had a great social game, and she knew how to align herself with others and make moves to advance herself. The Exile alliance flopped, but she had people wanting to protect her. Her biggest mistake was not talking to Erinn at the final 4 to force a tie against Stephen, but I can't hold that against her because the two of them were extremely close. X Sierra ruined a lot of the season for me, wish she would have been booted instead of Candace early on.
MghtyMouse33		#22	[-]
Posts: 42 (05/18/09 1:35 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	It's strange that in the last 9 seasons, there have only been 2 female winners, and I think this is due to two things: the cast: Seasons like Palau, Fiji and Cook Islands had VERY weak female players at the end, like Caryn, Katie, Sundra, Becky, Cassandra, and Stacy. Alot of the stronger, more strategic women were voted out earlier for whatever reason, perhaps due to the fact that in previous seasons, it has already been proven that women like Sandra, Tina, and Jenna may be underestimated at first, but can be surprising threats to win. However, alot of it is also due to the fact that females don't seem to be giving themselves alot of credit when it gets down to final tribal council. Amanda certainly should have won China; she was IMO instrumental in her alliance's success (Todd would have made alot of stupid moves if it wasn't for her, like keeping James at F7 or getting rid of Jean-Robert before Sherea), but because nobody saw her game, and she didn't own up to it on the jury, everyone assumed Todd was responsible for all her moves.
ImANewUser		#23	[-]
Posts: 1642 (05/18/09 11:31 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	MghtyMouse33 wrote: Amanda certainly should have won China; she was IMO instrumental in her alliance's success (Todd would have made alot of stupid moves if it wasn't for her, like keeping James at F7 or getting rid of Jean-Robert before Sherea), but because nobody saw her game, and she didn't own up to it on the jury, everyone assumed Todd was responsible for all her moves. I'll give you the James one, but as I said before: Will it matter? Frosti was gung-ho on Fei Long and James would've only flipped if Frosti flipped (as far as I read somewhere here) and Jaime/Sherea would've just left 6-4 & 6-3 here and the Final 8 would still be the same.
Dr Will Hatch two point oh		#24	[-]
Posts: 7990 (05/18/09 11:38 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I think that Survivor, under optimal conditions(Where everyone is playing logically) usually results in a man winning. Not to mention the HII contributing towards alliances cementing their power. Maybe women can only do well when sticking together. Shrugs shoulders
Kirblar		#25	[-]
Posts: 7862 (05/18/09 11:38 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Amanda's social game was horrible, she just got a good edit.
craig		#26	[-]
Posts: 15670 (05/19/09 3:26 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I think that Survivor, under optimal conditions (Where everyone is playing logically) usually results in a man winning. But isn't it precisely the irrational, illogical factors that usually give men the upper hand? Sugar or Coach playing for the good people or most deserving warrior to win - means trying to hand the game to a male. Or Becky and Cassandra playing as the helpmate of a man they like and respect. In more hardcore seasons, threats (males) gets targeted and the weak (women) realize they have common interests. See Marquesas, Amazon, Pearl Islands, and Micronesia.
tomash		#27	[-]
Posts: 652 (05/19/09 3:33 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	They need to cast more strong women who are willing to make moves on their own - not just blindly sticking to an alpha male and hoping to somehow randomly win at the end. Women can definitely be strong, just look at Vanuatu, Marquesas, Outback, Micro etc. I think it has more to do with poor casting than anything else.
Quiddity		#28	[-]
Posts: 5538 (05/19/09 7:26 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	tomash wrote: They need to cast more strong women who are willing to make moves on their own - not just blindly sticking to an alpha male and hoping to somehow randomly win at the end. Women can definitely be strong, just look at Vanuatu, Marquesas, Outback, Micro etc. I think it has more to do with poor casting than anything else. X. I think thats the #1 issue to solve at this point, as they have, to their credit, fixed a lot of the things that made the show so lopsided towards males during the CI/Fiji era, such as the repeated late merges, extra long pre-merges, males pretty much always being the only ones to get the idol, etc... They gotta cast more alpha female types, and less Sierra types. :P
The Very Insane Shark		#29	[-]
Posts: 4154 (05/19/09 7:37 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I was baffled as to why Probst couldn't see why Taj was popular. Granted, she became quite invisible later on, but in the pre-merge she was shaping up to be another Cirie. So it would've seemed... But based on her comments in the finale, reunion, and post-game interviews, it's obvious that she had absolutely no idea how to play the game after all.
WylDawg		#30	[-]
Posts: 18235 (05/19/09 7:46 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	They gotta cast more alpha female types, and less Sierra types. :P You're on to something. Maybe it's because they are determined to always cast brawny alpha male types and prissy modeling types for women. Hmmmmmmmm, let's see, who is bound to dominate in that scenario? Sue, Kathy, Teresa, Ami, Steph, Tammy etc were all "take charge" women and wouldn't you know it, none of them are 22 year old Californian models who never heard of the show. But as long as they keep casting Jenns and Sierra and Erinnns, expect the money to be handed to a dominating male. But of course the fanboys here would off themselves if they stopped casting those types.
Katy Carney		#31	[-]
Posts: 6126 (05/19/09 7:58 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	craig wrote: I think that Survivor, under optimal conditions (Where everyone is playing logically) usually results in a man winning. But isn't it precisely the irrational, illogical factors that usually give men the upper hand? Sugar or Coach playing for the good people or most deserving warrior to win - means trying to hand the game to a male. Or Becky and Cassandra playing as the helpmate of a man they like and respect. The concept of a "good" "deserving" winner is automatically a man. From Jeff Probst to the viewing audience, there has never been a satisfying female winner and there never will be. It will always be either 1) that bitch or 2) WHO? or 3) Colby/Rupert/Man A should have won but at least that woman that liked him won, and maybe sometimes a mix. Alpha females are always bitches. Stephenie as an underdog? ADORABLE. America's sweetheart! Stephenie as an assertive alliance leader? Horrible bitch! Jerri, Ami, Candice, Parvati...the list goes on and on. Any woman who plays hard and plays for herself is given a universally negative edit and the audience eats it up.
Dr Will Hatch two point oh		#32	[-]
Posts: 7996 (05/19/09 8:19 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	craig wrote: I think that Survivor, under optimal conditions (Where everyone is playing logically) usually results in a man winning. But isn't it precisely the irrational, illogical factors that usually give men the upper hand? Sugar or Coach playing for the good people or most deserving warrior to win - means trying to hand the game to a male. Or Becky and Cassandra playing as the helpmate of a man they like and respect. In more hardcore seasons, threats (males) gets targeted and the weak (women) realize they have common interests. See Marquesas, Amazon, Pearl Islands, and Micronesia. There are a few problems with that argument. The Amazon women willingly cannibalized themselves at Rob Cs machinations. The cast was strategically sound, but Jenna only won by the skin of her teeth. Likewise, the only reason Sandra won PI was because Fairplay made a miscalculation in booting Christa at final 6 instead of Lillian. Marquesas wasn't a very strong cast strategically, it was really just a reverse pagonging. I give tremendous kudos to Vee as one of the most underrated winners(If you read up on the season, she made the absolute best move every time), but that has little to do with our discussion.
Dr Will Hatch two point oh		#33	[-]
Posts: 7997 (05/19/09 8:28 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Katy Carney wrote: craig wrote: I think that Survivor, under optimal conditions (Where everyone is playing logically) usually results in a man winning. But isn't it precisely the irrational, illogical factors that usually give men the upper hand? Sugar or Coach playing for the good people or most deserving warrior to win - means trying to hand the game to a male. Or Becky and Cassandra playing as the helpmate of a man they like and respect. The concept of a "good" "deserving" winner is automatically a man. From Jeff Probst to the viewing audience, there has never been a satisfying female winner and there never will be. It will always be either 1) that bitch or 2) WHO? or 3) Colby/Rupert/Man A should have won but at least that woman that liked him won, and maybe sometimes a mix. Alpha females are always bitches. Stephenie as an underdog? ADORABLE. America's sweetheart! Stephenie as an assertive alliance leader? Horrible bitch! Jerri, Ami, Candice, Parvati...the list goes on and on. Any woman who plays hard and plays for herself is given a universally negative edit and the audience eats it up. It always irritates me whenever it is late in the game and there's a female majority, and Jeff always makes a backhanded compliment about it. Something like "It's the final five, and three of them are women. Got to respect that." If it means anything, I never liked Stephenie on Palau either. Her whiny, elitist rant on why she is better than Janu is a good indicator to the bewildered on what was to come in Guatemala.
craig		#34	[-]
Posts: 15676 (05/19/09 8:41 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	It will always be either 1) that bitch or 2) WHO? or 3) Colby/Rupert/Man A should have won but at least that woman that liked him won, and maybe sometimes a mix. Tina - at least that woman that liked him won Vee - WHO? Jenna - that bitch Sandra - at least that woman that liked him won Amber - Who? (anti-Romber OR at least that woman that liked him won (pro-Mariano) Danni - Who? (beating "that bitch") Parvati - that bitch (beating "that women loyal to Ozzy\James") Good analysis!
WylDawg		#35	[-]
Posts: 18236 (05/19/09 9:39 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Jenna only won by the skin of her teeth. Likewise, the only reason Sandra won PI was because Fairplay made a miscalculation in booting Christa at final 6 instead of Lillian That's another good point. Viewers like to see a winner who dominated their season, and out of 7 female winners, 5 of them won by a longshot. Tina and Parvati were really the only two who dominated their season. If you look at the male winners, it's the same rationale. The popular ones are those who dominated (Tom, Yul, JT etc.) Bob and Ethan were merely liked because they were the nice, innocent guys, it would be the same if Elisabeth or Sandy won their respective seasons. Likewise, male winners who didn't have such a commanding win like Chris or Aras, aren't popular with the average viewers.
survivorisdabest		#36	[-]
Posts: 3142 (05/19/09 11:13 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Alpha females are always bitches. Stephenie as an underdog? ADORABLE. America's sweetheart! Stephenie as an assertive alliance leader? Horrible bitch! Jerri, Ami, Candice, Parvati...the list goes on and on. Any woman who plays hard and plays for herself is given a universally negative edit and the audience eats it up. X! I am so sick of this double standard that Jeff/the audience/the jury always has. Basically because of this women who play the game well will only be able to win against women.
matty p		#37	[-]
Posts: 45 (05/19/09 11:33 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	WylDawg wrote: Jenna only won by the skin of her teeth. Likewise, the only reason Sandra won PI was because Fairplay made a miscalculation in booting Christa at final 6 instead of Lillian That's another good point. Viewers like to see a winner who dominated their season, and out of 7 female winners, 5 of them won by a longshot. Tina and Parvati were really the only two who dominated their season. If you look at the male winners, it's the same rationale. The popular ones are those who dominated (Tom, Yul, JT etc.) Bob and Ethan were merely liked because they were the nice, innocent guys, it would be the same if Elisabeth or Sandy won their respective seasons. Likewise, male winners who didn't have such a commanding win like Chris or Aras, aren't popular with the average viewers. Summed it up pretty well. The most respected winners, regardless of gender, have been the people that have dominated their season. Unfortuately, only 2 of the female winners have done this - Parvati and Tina. There have probably been six men who have truly done this and they are much more highly respected than the other male winners of the show. I'd say the most dominant and therefore most respected winners are: Richard - Created the way the game is played Tina - Largely satisfying for the audience as she dominated strategy and the social game although Colby would have been the preferred winner Brian - However, this season isn't respected and he as a person isn't regarded highly so he doesn't get as much respect Tom - Dominated in every facet of the game Yul - Dominated strategically and socially, with the help of an idol Todd - We were introduced to his strategy as a fan of Survivor in the 1st episode and followed his story throughout the game Parvati - Controlled 3 alliances JT - Probably the second most 'dominant' winner in all facets of the game after Tom, and even played a noble game at the end by taking the best to the final two The other winners simply have not dominated their season as much and thus are not as highly respected, regardless of their gender. Last Edited By: matty p 05/19/09 11:36 PM. Edited 3 times.
XtremeInnovator420		#38	[-]
Posts: 1517 (05/20/09 12:01 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I do have to admit that I would love to see more Candice or Parvati (to a smaller extent) types cast. Yeah, I admit both were cast from Cook Islands, but Candice, to me, was willing to do whatever she needed to in order to get further without hesitation, and gets flak for the mutiny when it's really only a mistake in hindsight. Parvati also seemed to take Micro by the balls. Heck, you can even look at PG in China as being a good female example (she was probably the biggest jury threat in the F6). I'd much rather have a game full of Elizas, Amis, and Ciries, than one full of Ashlee's, Brianna's, Mary's, Sugar's, Sydney's, or Sierra's for sure.
kishuu		#39	[-]
Posts: 1946 (05/20/09 6:36 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	WylDawg wrote: They gotta cast more alpha female types, and less Sierra types. :P You're on to something. Maybe it's because they are determined to always cast brawny alpha male types and prissy modeling types for women. Hmmmmmmmm, let's see, who is bound to dominate in that scenario? Sue, Kathy, Teresa, Ami, Steph, Tammy etc were all "take charge" women and wouldn't you know it, none of them are 22 year old Californian models who never heard of the show. But as long as they keep casting Jenns Sugars and Sierras and Erinnns, expect the money to be handed to a dominating male. But of course the fanboys here would off themselves if they stopped casting those types. Fixed since Jenn/Erinn did play the game but the overall story in their season wasn't about them. Palau - Centered around Ulong being the worst tribe EVA, Tom/Ian/Katie/StephME. Tocantins - First boot twist, omg Sierra's dating a producer, let's give her the underdog edit (which was shitty). Everyone wants JT at the end. Coach in general soaked up a lot of airtime. Those were pretty much the main storylines of Tocantins (as well as the motherfucking Exile Alliance). Of course the girls would've gotten ignored.
WylDawg		#40	[-]
Posts: 18237 (05/20/09 9:45 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	But as long as they keep casting Jenns Sugars and Sierras and Erinnns, I don't see how that was fixed. Sugar has much as I hated her emotional gameplay was still a million times more proactive in the game than Jenn and Erinn ever were. Last Edited By: WylDawg 05/21/09 4:39 PM. Edited 1 times.

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So, females should always make all girl alliances going forward?

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