S-18 Edgic (editing and logic) - Tocantins - Survivor Speculation - Spoiler Related - Survivor Sucks - Message Board

0 Kudo

S-18 Edgic (editing and logic) - Tocantins

Started By	Comment
9RedWing19		#5121	[-]
Posts: 2562 (05/18/09 9:58 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Day After Musings Working backwards, the editors have to deal with a shutout vote with an "unbreakable" pair with the non-leader member of the pair unable to convince the jury to vote for him over the leader/superior challenge performer. To make the finale suspenseful, they highlighted the non-leaders strategic side. It helped that Stephen is articulate and was a member of the Exile Alliance (which in retrospect was essentially a non-factor in the way the game played out post-merge). There was also the game-logic doubt of why would anyone want to take somebody like JT to the end. Should we in Edgic have gone more for JT over Stephen? Hard to say - we've been conditioned over the many seasons not to expect "obvious" jury-vote favourites like JT and Bob to get to the end because game logic suggests that they are too much of a threat and they will be voted out for that reason (eg Terry and Yau-man). Maybe that piece of game-logic is influencing us too strongly ...
Werwanderflugen		#5122	[-]
Posts: 218 (05/18/09 10:02 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	So, basically, not enough Ed, too much gic?
colleenlover		#5123	[-]
Posts: 9331 (05/18/09 10:35 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I still don't think there was anything I could deduce differently. JT by logic in storytelling was a great personality, and the type of character to exploit on a tv show. I think I pegged him initially to be the feel bad boot at the merge. But then we had the bean scene and the talk about a swap. Fine -just is foreshadowing that a swap is happening and JT either foresees the importance or ironcially winds up in a situation without food. But then the idol of episode six happens- which connects him to all the Exile business, and the repeated plotpoint that Jala is down in numbers and will be hard to win. (if it was a straightforward knockout of the Jalas it would be downplayed to make the viewers forget the numbers thing is an issue) the merge is where it was driven home -and here's where I think visibality does not matter, it's all content. And where we really have to look at the working backwards thing. JT's confession that he never wins; the handshake, the repeated danger of the numbers. Stephen looked good too for obvious reasons. But to me, JT had the edge in being in the end (doesn't mean he has to be the winner though) simply because he has the manipulation of others commenting on him, drawing throughlines from juror to finalist. I thought Sierra and JT had the strongest cases of this manipulation -both manipulated scope and manipulated comments from others on them regarding themes. I thought it was good work though from the editors in creating the tension between Stephen and JT, but wished the others had been developed more complexly, so we're never sure if they are leaving or not. (Debbie comes to mind -with a little more development, she could have been a fantastic distraction of running the game). Anything so we don't know immediately that the Jala Three are going to rebound successfully so many episodes before they do. anyone think Taj was following JT in the net challenge to block him so he wouldn't win? I still don't get why they would knock out Taj at final four. *the taking of Erinn to the final two is something that would have been so risky simply by the betrayals they were doing, and causing Erinn to win simply as a payback- a up yours to either Taj, Stephen or JT (whichever one took her) by the other two and the possibility of Timberia understanding why Erinn fly their own coop.
astroline		#5124	[-]
Posts: 2166 (05/18/09 10:52 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	It's just funny that Stephen gets this awesome, psuedo-winner CP/MOR edit all season long when he actually recieves 0 votes. Same with Sugar, who got an amazing edit. Yet you have others, like Susie, who almost wins, and gets not even 2% of the edit that either Stephen or Sugar gets. It makes no sense, the editors love to play favorites. They probably could have turned Stephen into a Katie or Danielle edit if they wanted to, but because he's a guy with a great stereotype for Survivor, he gets a great edit. It's such bullshit. Anyway, good season, good finale. Nothing really amazing though, even if Coach, Erinn, Taj, Debbie, Tyson were good characters. FORZA Erinn - CPP4 J.T. - CP5 Stephen - CP4 Taj - MOR2 And to whoever said that I've never gotten a winner correctly (in response to another post, that's not true). I was right all along for Micronesia, even if I was wrong for Fiji, China, Gabon and now Tocantins. I don't care about being right -- I just want to explore different options and have fun posting episode ratings.
chapera rocks		#5125	[-]
Posts: 11112 (05/18/09 11:03 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Stephen's edit definitely had holes; first of all, he didn't have a good episode one. His episode 1 edit was more about others than himself. Second, in the merge, he was overshadowed by J.T. That should have been another indication. Finale: Erinn - CPM4 (I could also see P, since she had more underdog positivity than JT/Stephen negative SPV) J.T. - CPP5 Stephen - CPN5 Taj - MOR2 (maybe even UTR2 - such a disappointment for someone who started out so strong)
getting real		#5126	[-]
Posts: 1756 (05/18/09 11:19 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Seems to me that production have trouble editing a season in an optimum way when the major protagonists don't play to win for themselves. For the second season in a row we have seen a major entertainment 'character' hijack the show and create havoc by refusing to play for themselves and clearing a path to victory for the eventual winner. We know what Sugar did last season; this season we had two of these mavericks on the same tribe (Brendan & Coach), squaring off against each other, not in an attempt to win the game, but ultimately working to hand it to their anointed surrogates! I'm not sure precisely what I feel about these 'rogue' players. On the one hand, it's one of the infinite ways to play the game; on the other, it eliminates the possibility of seeing sound strategic game-play unfold. And, worse, it seems to somewhat mess with the editors' mind - and ours.
JaMalle		#5127	[-]
Posts: 4516 (05/18/09 11:41 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	getting real wrote: Seems to me that production have trouble editing a season in an optimum way when the major protagonists don't play to win for themselves. For the second season in a row we have seen a major entertainment 'character' hijack the show and create havoc by refusing to play for themselves and clearing a path to victory for the eventual winner. We know what Sugar did last season; this season we had two of these mavericks on the same tribe (Brendan & Coach), squaring off against each other, not in an attempt to win the game, but ultimately working to hand it to their anointed surrogates! I'm not sure precisely what I feel about these 'rogue' players. On the one hand, it's one of the infinite ways to play the game; on the other, it eliminates the possibility of seeing sound strategic game-play unfold. And, worse, it seems to somewhat mess with the editors' mind - and ours. X Good observation!
angstygoldfish		#5128	[-]
Posts: 1437 (05/18/09 12:00 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I don't get all this first episode analysis crap. Didn't Eliza tell you people that the first episode is edited even before the final TC has happened????
scepticA		#5129	[-]
Posts: 1654 (05/18/09 12:20 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	angsty, the first episode is broadly edited before the season ends, but the final edit isn't done until later (I heard they're doing fine-tune editing up until a few days before air time). For example, the fact that Sierra and Sandy were the outcasts was obvious, and their two competing strategies for what to do at camp (build shelter vs. look for HII) were highlighted. But the other stuff, the confessionals etc. can be massaged and edited in - or out, as the case may be) at a later date. I'd guess that at least 2/3 of the first ep is almost pre-ordained. It's that missing 1/3 (the early confessionals, etc) that we are examining here. And you had the F3 with reasonably solid confessionals in that first ep.
wallduck		#5130	[-]
Posts: 541 (05/18/09 12:30 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	To make the finale suspenseful, they highlighted the non-leaders strategic side. It helped that Stephen is articulate and was a member of the Exile Alliance (which in retrospect was essentially a non-factor in the way the game played out post-merge). There was also the game-logic doubt of why would anyone want to take somebody like JT to the end. Despite the perennial "bad editing" claims, I thought they did a good job of creating suspense in a situation that was in reality a complete blow-out. Anyway, they fooled me. Should we in Edgic have gone more for JT over Stephen? Hard to say - we've been conditioned over the many seasons not to expect "obvious" jury-vote favourites like JT and Bob to get to the end because game logic suggests that they are too much of a threat and they will be voted out for that reason (eg Terry and Yau-man). Maybe that piece of game-logic is influencing us too strongly ... Yeah, the expectation is somewhat embedded in edgic that the obviously strongest players will be taken care of by their rivals--so we shouldn't have to worry about them. But the post-merge course of this season was unusual in that the dominant tribe was so intent on self destruction that they not only let the obvious strong player waltz to victory, but they also never figured how dominant a player Stephen was. (Sample thinking: Tyson thought he'd been outsmarted by Sierra, and Sierra thinks she slew the dragon!) The tendency toward picking a nonobvious strategist--one who will be acknowledged by the jury for masterminding the game--doesn't really account for the possibility that the jury won't even know what really happened in the game.
Jedijake		#5131	[-]
Posts: 5687 (05/18/09 1:43 PM) MESS member Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Editing made it even. The only thing that made it seem uneven was the "first impression" scene in episode 1 where certain people spoke. But then again, I guess that was meant to be a little misleading. I kinda knew something was up when, in the beginning of the finale, they didn't harp on the first impressions in the recap.
Buzzkill		#5132	[-]
Posts: 10 (05/18/09 1:48 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I think that having the Jury all together at Ponderosa with nothing to talk about but the remaining players distorts the early Jurors perception of the game... they should be kept separate to allow their Final IC votes to be based on the game they themselves experienced.
Brazil Luvs Ami		#5133	[-]
Posts: 314 (05/18/09 1:48 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Buzzkill wrote: I think that having the Jury all together at Ponderosa with nothing to talk about but the remaining players distorts the early Jurors perception of the game... they should be kept separate to allow their Final IC votes to be based on the game they themselves experienced. Agreed!!!!
cantthinkofaname		#5134	[-]
Posts: 1423 (05/18/09 3:44 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Why is everyone giving Erinn 4s and JT and Stephen 5s. The number's should add up to 11-13. the ones I'm seeing add up to 16. That's what they'd add up to if there was a VF chart. The total visibility numbers should roughly equal the number of contestants multiplied by 3. Just take a look at Gabon's or FvF's finale VF charts. So, what the numbers should be are Taj - 1/2 Erinn - 2/3 Stephen - 3/4 JT - 3/4
Phoenix1269		#5135	[-]
Posts: 678 (05/18/09 4:17 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	9RedWing19 wrote: Day After Musings Working backwards, the editors have to deal with a shutout vote with an "unbreakable" pair with the non-leader member of the pair unable to convince the jury to vote for him over the leader/superior challenge performer. To make the finale suspenseful, they highlighted the non-leaders strategic side. It helped that Stephen is articulate and was a member of the Exile Alliance (which in retrospect was essentially a non-factor in the way the game played out post-merge). There was also the game-logic doubt of why would anyone want to take somebody like JT to the end. Should we in Edgic have gone more for JT over Stephen? Hard to say - we've been conditioned over the many seasons not to expect "obvious" jury-vote favourites like JT and Bob to get to the end because game logic suggests that they are too much of a threat and they will be voted out for that reason (eg Terry and Yau-man). Maybe that piece of game-logic is influencing us too strongly ... I understand what you are saying here RW.... and i do agree with you that game logic should dictate that these people would be voted out. However, since that isn't always the case (Tom would be another really great example of this...)... It needs to be slotted into the category of "real" doubt for the winner.... the editors know it's already there, so they can focus their energies elsewhere. JT had so much real doubt that the editors had the opportunity to craft a fabulous false winner's edit for Stephen. This season, I really went with the idea of: the winner's edit is established pre-merge (up to and including the merge episode); post-merge is all about messing with what you already know. I am not sure who said this originally (OTH maybe, or Chaperone... not sure).... but i really took it to heart this year, and used it to compare to the past winner's pre-merge pattern, building off of Green Coffee's Type A vs Type B theory. based on what the pre-merge PATTERN of ratings, tones and visibilities.... I realized that only JT's lined up with other past winners. Apollo Italiano had a great post around the merge with charts and things that really illustrated what I was also doing, looking at how the patterns were similar. Between that pattern, the structure of JT's episode 1 confessional+scene+SPV and all the focus on him losing part of his tooth.... this was what i based my choice on. After the merge, i stopped trying to make him fit a pattern, and i stopped looking at other players patterns....with the single exception of the MORDiff. There were a few times that i thought for sure i chose incorrectly, but i had committed to JT at the merge and i stuck with it. Do i think Edgic should have looked more seriously at JT over Stephen? Yes I do. And I am not saying that because i picked him.... i am saying that because Edgic discounted JT very early for being too P and too MOR... which i think is an incorrect assumption since the majority of winners PRE-MERGE have tended towards being MORish and/or Pish and/or both. Last Edited By: Phoenix1269 05/18/09 4:21 PM. Edited 1 times.
craig		#5136	[-]
Posts: 15662 (05/18/09 5:27 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Stephen's edit definitely had holes; first of all, he didn't have a good episode one. His episode 1 edit was more about others than himself. Dunno. One of biggest arguments against Danni (aside friom Low Vis) was that her early story was about recognizing Gary as a QB, and edgic picked Gary for several episodes before his boot. It made sense for Stephen to talk about JT at that juncture since (a) JT was the leader with impressive skills and (b) they were the alliance of the season. JT wouldn't have had much of winner-like to say about nerd boy at that stage. Face it, they gave this winner a toned down Episode One (unlike the ep.13-17 winners but similar to several that went before). JT got enough attention to put him on everyone's radar, but Sierra, Stephen, and Erinn made a bigger splash in the opening bit. Brian and Tom had toned down ep.1 too - perhaps they do that with winners who dominate a season, otherwise they'd be ridiculously obvious.
9RedWing19		#5137	[-]
Posts: 2563 (05/18/09 5:38 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	craig wrote: Face it, they gave this winner a toned down Episode One (unlike the ep.13-17 winners but similar to several that went before). JT got enough attention to put him on everyone's radar, but Sierra, Stephen, and Erinn made a bigger splash in the opening bit. The thing about Ep 1 was the ridiculously high visibility that Sandy got (she would have been an 8 or a 9 if we could go that high - she had almost double the score of Carolina (the next highest) per Warrior's chart). Normally I put a lot of weight on the Ep 1 episode; not so much this season because so few contestants had a "good" first episode. Given the way the season played out, it was arguably an odd editing choice to focus so much on Sandy (though it could have been worse - we could have gotten more Benjamin).
chapera rocks		#5138	[-]
Posts: 11121 (05/18/09 5:41 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Danni and Stephen were edited entirely different, so I'm not sure why that's such a great comparison. Gary didn't even make the end-game; it was a clear storyline that applied to Gary being a covert former pro-footballer, and the other tribe knowing. They knew because of Danni, so they can't exactly ignore that fact. I also pointed out that maybe not getting an opening confessional was good for the winner; since we were shown that forming first impressions was a bad thing because you never know what someone is made of. Another indication was the recap episode. We had Stephen, Sydney, Joe all commenting on J.T.'s position in the game and how they are playing in regards to J.T. That was another key episode where J.T. trumped Stephen.
getting real		#5139	[-]
Posts: 1757 (05/18/09 5:57 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I kinda knew something was up when, in the beginning of the finale, they didn't harp on the first impressions in the recap. The way the first impressions theme played out was interesting. They did connect the first episode emphasis on 'first impressions' with the end-game by having a dedicated F2 scene of JT & Stephen discussing how they overcame each other's first impressions. What they said to each other was certainly also true for the viewing audience. However, it turns out that, in reality, not a single person overcame any of those first impressions given in the first episode. Not Sierra, who despite having staying power, did crumble (emotionally), as Coach had predicted. Not Sandy, who was the first (fake) and the second tribe (real) boot because of her age. Not Erinn, who remained a bitch in the others' eyes. And not even Stephen, where Sandy's perception about him being easily led turned out to be so deadly accurate in game reality that it cost him every vote on the jury. Move along, edgic. No irony to be seen here. Turns out that the first impression theme, like the JT/Stephen final 2, was meant to be taken at face value. I think that having the Jury all together at Ponderosa with nothing to talk about but the remaining players distorts the early Jurors perception of the game... they should be kept separate to allow their Final IC votes to be based on the game they themselves experienced. If anything, the opposite was at fault here. The problem seemed to be that the jurors were unaware of what had really happened between JT and Stephen. This was unavoidable since, until Taj was voted out, the Tambirans had no way of knowing. For Stephen's 'mastermind behind the scenes' strategy to have worked, he needed someone like Taj on the jury a lot earlier to provide the other jurors with a different insight into what took place. Last Edited By: getting real 05/18/09 6:03 PM. Edited 2 times.
chaperone		#5140	[-]
Posts: 2675 (05/18/09 6:04 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Wow, interesting thought, GR, that had Stephen betrayed Taj earlier, intentionally, with deliberately veiled yet strategic communication could actually have helped the jury understand that he was pulling a lot more strings. I'll have to tuck that away for when I'm playing the game... :)

<< Previous Topic Next Topic >>

Yuku free message boards

S-18 Edgic (editing and logic) - Tocantins

Quick Reply