5/13/09 S5 Finale "The Incident"

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Cheyenie		#561	[-]
Posts: 1189 (05/15/09 10:27 AM) MESS member Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I thought that opening conversation was basically the story behind the show too. It's all about black & white.
Merrilin		#562	[-]
Posts: 1223 (05/15/09 10:31 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Sounds about right Pagong. That thing with Jacob/Ben was obviously some kind of test. Jacob didn't resist even a little bit. And I just like using the name Esau; I'm not sure about how much the characters are actually similiar. It was just the first thing that popped into my mind. This show uses a lot of Biblical references.
Canadian Model		#563	[-]
Posts: 109 (05/15/09 10:43 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Hostile6 wrote: I wouldn't count Desmond yet. I think he story arc is over. I thought it might be over once he and Penny got together. Then he was used as a dues ex machina of sorts. They could of motivated him back to the island by killing Penny (and not introducing baby Charlie) if they wanted and they didn't. That scene of Des and Penny in the hospital, saying he would never leave her, seemed to indicate finality. Besides, they might not want him motorboating the crew anymore. Details?
Rodo		#564	[-]
Posts: 102 (05/15/09 10:59 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Canadian Model wrote: Hostile6 wrote: I wouldn't count Desmond yet. I think he story arc is over. I thought it might be over once he and Penny got together. Then he was used as a dues ex machina of sorts. They could of motivated him back to the island by killing Penny (and not introducing baby Charlie) if they wanted and they didn't. That scene of Des and Penny in the hospital, saying he would never leave her, seemed to indicate finality. Besides, they might not want him motorboating the crew anymore. Details? http://www.eonline.com/ub..._campaign=rss_topstories Some ABC employee accused him of sexually harassing her at work. She said he motorboated her tits. You can find a lot more about it by searching for Henry Ian Cusick on Google. PagongSchlong wrote: First of all, I appreciate all of the Biblical references you guys are making. I only rant once every season… so here goes. As I've mentioned so many times before, I think one of the most important scenes in Lost mythology is Locke explaining the two players, two sides, one is light one is dark bit to Walt. I think what the interaction that we saw between Jacob and The Man in Black during the opening of the finale may be the most telling of all. Let's break it down: The Man in Black: Morning Jacob: Morning The Man in Black: Mind if I join you? Jacob: Please Jacob: Want some fish? The Man in Black: Thank you. I just ate. Jacob: I take it you're here because of the ship. The Man in Black: I am. How did they find the island? Jacob: You'll have to ask them when they get here. The Man in Black: I don't have to ask…YOU brought them here. The Man in Black: Still trying to prove me wrong? Jacob: You ARE wrong. The Man in Black: Am I? They come…they fight…they destroy… they corrupt. It always ends the same. Jacob: It only ends once. Anything that happens before that…is just progress. The Man in Black: Do you have any idea how badly I want to kill you? Jacob: Yes. The Man in Black: One of these days, sooner or later…we're going to find a loophole, my friend. Jacob: Well when you do, I'll be right here. The Man in Black: Always nice talking to you, Jacob. Jacob: Nice talking to you too. The Man in Black: One of these days, sooner or later…we're going to find a loophole, my friend. D Does anyone else think it is odd that he says, "we're going to find a loophole..."? I noticed this when reading the dialogue just now, but not when I originally watched it. Is this dialogue correct? If so, who is the we he refers to? Who else is out to get rid of Jacob? By the way, very nice work Pagong. I missed some of those references. Cute Poison wrote: Rodo wrote: I want a Richard centric episode to answer my questions. There are a lot of people who want that, including myself..... Could the anti-jacob be the one who was in the cabin the one who spoke to Locke? Because the real Jacob doesn't look like he needs any help. Well maybe now that he is dead he does. That is an interesting idea. Maybe that is where the Anti-Jacob got the idea to pretend to be Locke. He was the one who needed help and Locke ended up helping him, though I doubt on purpose. Ben did admit to it being a ruse, however, so I don't know if that was just something he (and possibly Richard) concocted or not. Are Smokey and the anti-Jacob working together? Or is Smokey oblivious to anti-Jacob's plan? When it took the form of Alex, it told Ben to follow Locke no matter what. Now, we have found out that it isn't really Locke. Did Smokey plan this to further convince Ben he should kill Jacob, or did it unintentionally seal Ben's fate?
PagongSchlong		#565	[-]
Posts: 5205 (05/15/09 11:10 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Maybe, the Man in Black took on the form of Locke to mislead the Others (hostiles, etc) because they've put their trust in him....and now the Man in Black hopes that he will be able to turn them all away from Jacob. Its just like the Bible says in Revelation, that the Devil would take the shape of many false prophets in attempts to mislead people.
Hostile6		#566	[-]
Posts: 1201 (05/15/09 11:17 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	The Man in Black: One of these days, sooner or later…we're going to find a loophole, my friend. D Does anyone else think it is odd that he says, "we're going to find a loophole..."? I noticed this when reading the dialogue just now, but not when I originally watched it. Is this dialogue correct? If so, who is the we he refers to? Who else is out to get rid of Jacob? By the way, very nice work Pagong. I missed some of those references. No, the dialog is "I'm going to find a loophole, my friend. I just re watched it and then w/captions.
Rodo		#567	[-]
Posts: 106 (05/15/09 11:25 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite
PagongSchlong		#568	[-]
Posts: 5206 (05/15/09 11:26 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Sorry about that. I swear he said we're. But I didnt watch with the caption on. = )
Cute Poison		#569	[-]
Posts: 156 (05/15/09 11:34 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	The MIB can't physically kill Jacob he needs someone else to do, hence the loophole. Locke seems to be easily manipulated, he was an easy target once he came to the cabin with Ben. The ring around the cabin was to keep Anti-Jacob in possibly? Ilana and her crew were not to happy to see the ring of ash disturbed. Jacob could have been scoping out his 'army for the war' when he showed up in the losties pre island lives. That is why I think when he said they're coming' he meant them. Ole Locke looked worried when Jacob said that. To me Jacob seems all about free will and anti is the opposite.
Shorty		#570	[-]
Posts: 2467 (05/15/09 12:12 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	In Genesis when God expelled Adam and Eve from the garden, "So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life." - Genesis 3:24 What cherubim are I think the island is basically the Garden of Eden because some people actually think the Garden still exists on this earth but it's hidden from the view of man and is guarded by the cherubim to this day. I think that fits with how the island is hidden from view. I agree that Jacob = Christ (who died in order to save us), Esau = Satan, Ben = Judas figure, and Richard, Ilana et al are cherubim or archangels. I don't think in Lost they'll be revealed as literally any of these things cause it's hard for me to imagine them laying out something that blatantly Christian, but it'll basically be all allegory to spirituality/religion in general. Rose and Bernard will represent Adam and Eve. The whole convo with Jacob and Esau on the beach echoes the convo God and Satan had in the book of Job (someone already mention this?) which is "what will a man do when you make him suffer? He'll forget you, God, and curse you. Man is out for himself." I also think the convo with Esau, Ben, and Jacob in Jacob's house definitely points to the free will argument cause often in the Bible Satan is shown as making people feel like they never have a choice and are victims in life, while God always reminds us of our freedom of choice. The Bible says Satan comes to "kill, steal, and destroy" but that Jesus comes that people might "have life and have it abundantly". When Locke is seen on the ground after he fell out of the window and Jacob touches him, he brought him back to life. Satan, at least in the Bible, doesn't have the power to do that. My son also had a theory that if Richard isn't an angel, that perhaps he did come on the Black Rock since the Spanish explorers seemed to always be looking for a Fountain of Youth and Richard found it. But we still like the angel explaination the best.
Shorty		#571	[-]
Posts: 2468 (05/15/09 12:14 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Oh, and haven't the writers been pretty upfront about the fact that Smokey is a machine? One that has intelligence, but a machine nevertheless. I thought I saw them talking about that on a podcast or something.
Hostile6		#572	[-]
Posts: 1202 (05/15/09 12:19 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Cute Poison wrote: The MIB can't physically kill Jacob he needs someone else to do, hence the loophole. Locke seems to be easily manipulated, he was an easy target once he came to the cabin with Ben. The ring around the cabin was to keep Anti-Jacob in possibly? Ilana and her crew were not to happy to see the ring of ash disturbed. Jacob could have been scoping out his 'army for the war' when he showed up in the losties pre island lives. That is why I think when he said they're coming' he meant them. Ole Locke looked worried when Jacob said that. To me Jacob seems all about free will and anti is the opposite. I think the loophole has to be a bit more complicated than getting another person to kill Jacob... Otherwise anyone could kill Jacob, and finding that one person to do it wouldn't be very hard at all.
PagongSchlong		#573	[-]
Posts: 5207 (05/15/09 12:33 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I know that the MIB made the loophole reference immediately AFTER he mentioned how badly he wanted to kill Jacob...but what if the loophole wasnt even referring to actually killing him. Perhaps the loophole was referring to a method that the MIB would be able to use to mislead others to get them to stray from their faith in Jacob.
Merrilin		#574	[-]
Posts: 1224 (05/15/09 12:37 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Shorty wrote: Oh, and haven't the writers been pretty upfront about the fact that Smokey is a machine? One that has intelligence, but a machine nevertheless. I thought I saw them talking about that on a podcast or something. Oh yeah, that's what else I was thinking before but forgot when I posted .. I don't think the black smoke is it's own being. I think it can be manipulated. I mainly think that because of the way Ben was able to "conjure" it. And also Rousseau's description as a security system. Who controls it and how is still in question though but it may be able to be controlled by multiple beings.
Screerider		#575	[-]
Posts: 24535 (05/15/09 12:47 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	The conversation at the end was interesting. The repeat of the "loophole" convo made it clear to me Jacob knew MIB found a way to kill him. And the cut to "Locke" and his reaction to when Ben compared him to Moses was curious, as if MIB were in fact Moses. Certainly, ancient Egyptians would know about Moses. Last Edited By: Screerider 05/15/09 1:56 PM. Edited 1 times.
chidelta		#576	[-]
Posts: 1232 (05/15/09 12:53 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Pagong, good post, as always. Thanks for the transcript of the intro convo. at the poster who says that must mean the island is purgatory How? They've gone back and forth to the outside world, had kids, killed people, got shot, and went down to the Snappy Snack Shack and feasted on a TurboDog. CP, that was me, and I said it in jest . . . only kinda, sort of . . . but didn't really get any nibbles. I've never been to purgatory, have you? I wasn't aware that there was a strict rule against leaving and returning back to society to try again (or to simply have a TurboDog). My point being, that the island is many things, including a sort of purgatory/limbo, where people are given a chance at redemption/resolution/renewing their faith. If it doesn't work, they may be sent back to earth, at the risk of being hailed back to the island after they screw up or can't cope in the real world. That's called progress.
pushingjate		#577	[-]
Posts: 2948 (05/15/09 12:54 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I agree that the beginning/end conversations are bigger to the over-all mythology of the show. Still love it.
marfbear		#578	[-]
Posts: 71 (05/15/09 1:36 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I've heard it mentioned elsewhere that the sounds of the equipment collapsing into the drill hole were similar to sounds we get when Smokey makes an appearance. Was Smokey somehow released/created when they hit that pocket? We didn't see him in 1977, did we?
Marley2Morrison		#579	[-]
Posts: 171 (05/15/09 2:23 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	didn't we see in a prior episode that not only was the smoke monster off-put by the orbs around dharmaville, but I thought smokey jumped back at the sight of some ash in the jungle, me thinks the ash was to keep smokey or possibly anti-jacob away from intruding on jacob, thus llana and her crew were considered when there was a break in the ring
GeckoIsGod		#580	[-]
Posts: 821 (05/15/09 2:26 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Marley2Morrison wrote: didn't we see in a prior episode that not only was the smoke monster off-put by the orbs around dharmaville, but I thought smokey jumped back at the sight of some ash in the jungle, me thinks the ash was to keep smokey or possibly anti-jacob away from intruding on jacob, thus llana and her crew were considered when there was a break in the ring The smoke monster couldn't pass through the sonic fence if that's what you're referring to?

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5/13/09 S5 Finale "The Incident"

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