Yeah. That makes sense.
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scepticA |
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There would be a charming circular argument among the trollheads if it went like this: Stephen wins, let's say. The trollspoilers, who from what I hear
have zippo in terms of spoilers for this season, are ticked, so they look around the internet for anywhere that had a prediction of Stephen wining from way
early in the season, and they find edgic. So they say the season was indeed spoiled. So they come here and try and piss on us by saying we're frauds
because Stephen was spoiled early on.
Yeah. That makes sense. |
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garyw |
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Last Edited By: Trixiego
05/02/09 7:02 AM.
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Kathy Fan 2 |
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This is going to sound offensive - and, well, perhaps it is. But - seriously, shame on you all for calling yourself edgicers when you pick JT as your winner.
He's a fucking distraction edit from day 1 through and through. ALL signs point to him not being the winner. It's honestly as almost all of you sway with the wind. Erinn goes a few episodes without good confessionals and ya'll automatically eliminate her from your list. Sierra goes from no confessionals to really good episodes and you all put her in your top 2 with Stephen. Sierra goes INV and you all elminate her. Erinn gets a confessional here and there and suddenly she's the topic of debate in the "finals." My point is - after reading 200+ pages of this thread, it seems like 70% of you all sway with whatever the EDIT of the week shows. JT was all but eliminated and now at the merge he gets these good episodes and suddenly he's in the finals, possibly the winner. NO, he's still a distraction. Follow the rules. |
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scepticA |
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garyw wrote:Does somebody follow you around with a drool cup?
Last Edited By: Trixiego
05/02/09 7:02 AM.
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taks |
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Kathy Fan 2, with alll due respect...
I think JT's edit has been extremely consistent the entire season. He was my winner pick in episode one and has NEVER dropped below my third choice. If you're going to assert that "all signs point to him not being the winner", then back it up. Otherwise, not only is the post offensive, but it's just there for the purpose of bitching which, quite frankly, is worthless. Sierra was in the Top 2 due to perceived manipulation on her edit; she lingered on the strength of her first two episodes with the caveat that she needed a great merge episode. She didn't get a great merge episode and as such was completely dropped from contention. Her story was clearly over. Erinn is definitely not a sway in the wind case. People who have supported her from the beginning continue to support her. People who have been skeptical of her edit continue to be skeptical. I think it's largely due to the strange reading of her edit. She does seem to get marginal focus unrelated to the action, but it's never completely in sync with the story arcs you'd expect. In this way, her edit is a sort of anomaly. Back to JT... if you think JT has suddenly gotten "good episodes" at the merge and was "all but eliminated" before that, then YOU should probably go back to see what you missed. JT stayed at a decent visibility premerge and gave key confessionals. He had one of the best (if not the best) introduction in episode one. He laid out everything and the viewer really got to know him. Episode two started his relationship with Stephen when it would be completely unnecessary otherwise. Episode three gave him some nice SPV as a trustworthy guy (which as you notice, was a key story point in JT's story). Episode four gave him a billion and five different opportunities to explain himself and his gameplay. It also ended a nice mini-story arc of him changing first impressions of Sandy. JT gets lots of more-than-narration confessionals where he is able to color the situation with his insight or comment on how something in the now will affect something in the future. The beans, the weather, rewards, and concerns of the merge all are partially mediated through JT's eyes. He has been given way more depth than a typical OTTP challenge monster should get. We get to hear his thought process on strategic decisions. He is not just a challenge threat or the really nice guy. He is also always in the game, always thinking. We don't need to ever hear him make a strategic confessional. The editors could very well limit those to Stephen if they wanted to, but they don't. JT has his "I don't know what I'm going to decide" or "So and so would be a good choice because... on the other hand so and so..." confessionals which keep him connected to the game. His tribal council questions are always meatier than a typical "I completely trust everyone" and show different sides of him. We've seen JT be devious. We've seen him lie. We've seen him contemplate voting Taj out after Stephen obtained her idol. These things didn't need to be shown (he DIDNT vote Taj out) but were. Also, the edit has shied away from making him look inferior to Stephen in the strategy department. They both have directed discussions and they both have felt out their tribemates for opinions. The editors love to play the Stephen talks to one person, JT talks to another and then they come together and compare data as a team. It's a beautiful editing trick which really shows them as a tag team. I love it. JT has all the proper connections to the jury. Brendan had his OTT exit gushing over JT. Tyson made his alliance with JT (fishing scene which could be considered extraneous). Sierra also commented on JT in Brendan's exit. Erinn commented with Joe on Exile how JT seemed like a great guy then came to him specifically for an alliance. The JT/Taj connection was made when they bonded together after she told him about the idol. Debbie has now commented on JT as a character. Coach obviously thinks he is the warrior. JT and Stephen? Well I don't think I need to explain that one. It doesn't seem unreasonable to at least see JT sitting in front of a jury. So, I'm following the rules. Maybe you need to give him the time of day, instead of declaring him edgically dead for the incredibly insightful reason of "NO, he's still a distraction". Or, maybe "it's [his] accent" that is making you discredit him. I don't know. Could he lose? Of course, I'm not declaring him the next winner. I'm just saying that his edit is very strong and there is no reason to be baffled by support for him. Kindly reconsider next time you feel the need to make an unresearched, baseless, blanket statement passing judgement on the quality of fellow edgicers. Cheers. |
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BlakeB717 |
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JT was always my number 4 until he shot up around Episode 5 for me. A distraction is someone who gets OTT. JT has only been OTT once, by my
standards, and it was a 3.
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chapera rocks |
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Can I just say one thing?
<33333333333333333 Taks |
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Kathy Fan 2 |
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Well, in all fairness, I'll give you JT not being "OTT" by edgic standards.
I'm judging by "casual viewer" standards, which, btw, I think needs to be factored into edgic's basics. I asked all 3 of my "casual" friends who do NOT go online for Survivor who they thought would win, and they all said JT. He's been front and center since merge, and was also front and center from the early episodes (except Taj's few episodes). He's certainly been OTTV (over the top VISIBLE) which I think needs to be considered. He's just too "there." Unless he's going to be another Yul or Earl edit, then he is a distraction. I really think that needs to be considered. And if you go back from the beginning of this thread from day 1 through 200 - you see just how many people switched their top tier picks from JT/Taj to Stephen/Erinn to Sierra/Brendan to Brendan/Tyson etc. I don't think my "sway with the wind" diss was without merit or basis. If you go back through the pages you honestly see how almost at least 70% of you "sway" with the EOTW (edit of the week) and rarely stick to your guns. Just my .2¢ |
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AndreSurvivor |
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For everyone's consideration...
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taks |
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Kathy Fan 2 wrote:1) JT has been very visible since the merge. It is a bad thing for his edit. It in no way backs up "He's a fucking distraction edit from day 1 through and through. ALL signs point to him not being the winner. " Everyone has problems with their edit. Just this last episode Stephen talked about how weak Coach was in challenges compared to Sierra (in the very next challenge Probst bashed Sierra and Coach won). JT could 2) In terms of visibility, I point you to Earl/Yul/Todd (three of our last 5 winners) and say his visibility isn't unheard of. In fact, almost all winners have very strong visibility (not QUITE JT strong, but very strong nonetheless) post merge. And he is on no way more OTT or P than Tom was. 3) I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people felt Stephen had this game wrapped up as well. I have no such wealth of casual fans who never go online for Suvivor to poll from, so I'll have to take your anecdote and let it sit. 4) Let's stop with the exaggerations. After episode one, Stephen and Sierra were the top 2 edgic picks until the merge, when Sierra died off (which I've explained). Stephen has continued. JT was in the top 4 in episodes 1 and 2, then reappeared in episode 6 and has continued. This tells us edgicers saw something in him the first two episodes, forgot about him, then realized his edit was coming around full circle. He should have always been on the radar, but that's hardly 70% swaying with the EOTW. In fact, you'll notice that very few people are picking him to win even now. Stephen is, and has almsot always been, the overwhelming edgic favorite. The random speculation/dissention discussion you're reading is simply to promote thoughtful discussion otherwise. It's not jumping on "OMG DEB WAS MOR, SHES TOTALLY GOT THIS" but truly fleshing out every edit. The official edgic picks however, do not change very much as is reflected in the voting. Gracias for your two cents restated. Greatly appreciate discussion of all types. and chapera rocks, all sorts of less-than-three right back at you. ETA: Just to note, I wrote a lengthy post warning edgicers not to overlook JT on 3/06 after episode four aired. (Not saying I was the only one who saw JT, just as a reference that his support isn't coming from thin air). I briefly mentioned JT/Stephen's relationship as looking like it was setting up an F2 on 4/04, which I believe was sometime around episode six (again, I wasn't the first to notice this, just referencing how early we were discussing this).
Last Edited By: taks
05/02/09 12:21 AM.
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AndreSurvivor |
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Kathy Fan 2 wrote: Well, if people weren't swayed from episode to episode, everyone would have kept Sierra as a top pick and Epic Fail would have followed. As well, sometimes people post just to vent or test a theory to see if it flies--or to just comment about the show without being called a c*nt, which is refreshing. As it appears, looking at the chart, "70%" may have posted one thing, but they voted 70% (give or take 3%) for Stephen. |
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augustus713 |
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Kathy Fan 2 wrote:I agree, that totally explains why there have only been 2 people at the top of the edgic chart and only 1 person for the last 5 (about to be 6) weeks. You caught us red-handed, we sure do sway with the wind. |
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DeadNotSlipping |
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So, first thing's first - the recap shows they were obviously playing it like Stephen brought up the whole Tyson blindside, which is another point in Stephen's favor in this episode (also - way less likely to go out at F3, now that The Ultimate Goat is out of the game). I still think Erinn defiantly meant Tyson in the reality of the situation, as the sentence still doesn't make sense otherwise, but who cares about the reality of the situation?
Why I don't see a Stephen\JT F2
Basically, because of episode 9. JT was so overwhelmingly positive, it was like they were making a JT infomercial (Such a great guy! Get three!). If you combine it with episode 8, JT has gotten positive feedback from Coach, Tyson, Brendan, Sierra, Taj and Erinn (when you are talking to one person, saying "I like you guys", it means you like that person). It was un-missable, completely superfluous and way too much in my book.
While he is being fleshed out into an interesting little character (it might be the accent indeed), when they hit the hammer that hard it usually serves a point. The point I personally think they are trying to make is justifying Stephen's betrayal of JT. The queues and hints are there, but I don't think the casual viewer pays them much heed, so they're pretty useless as doubt to a Stephen\JT F2. We don't get to actually see them maneuvering against each other, accept for the one time when JT found Taj's idol, and that both bening and all about Stephen. I strongly suspect Stephen's like that all the time. Might just be me, but dude seems a bit edgy.
And in the same episode that sealed the deal for me, JT-wise, "JT and Stephen" decided to send home the guy who wanted to take JT to the finals and LET HIM WIN, and we never got any reasoning from them. Stephen going "Brendan wants JT in the finals, and that's a major problem for me, and I'm trying to convince JT to vote for him" with the suspense being over who influences whom more - JT or Stephen, that would have been some doubt for a JT\Stephen F2. I would have even settled for JT going "I just don't trust Brendan, maybe he's lying to me" for at least some kind of explanation. But getting this super-P edit in an episode in which you also vote out the guy who wants to take you to the finals and LET YOU WIN, and you don't get to explain anything at all? That's a problem. And weird.
Plus - this season is about not trusting, momentum and blindsides. A JT\Stephen F2 doesn't fit for me.
Why I wouldn't like a Stephen\JT F2
I'm actually warming up to it, and to JT as a character. But basically, I wouldn't like it because Stephen has been sold to us as a shrewd super-game-involved, kind of paranoid strategic player who knows JT is a major threat, very well liked, and would probably win against him. The story doesn't fit in my head if Stephen allows JT into the finals, and I like it when the story fits in my head. I would like to see them both openly maneuvering against each other if that was to be the case. Not with hints and stuff, actually mentioning where their interests part ways and trying to pull over control to their court. Then maybe. Plus, I tend not to like the alpha male
characters.
Why I still think Erinn might win
This was by no means a good episode for her, mostly because it was a very strong episode for Stephen, but also because she was severely lacking from important parts that could and should have been mentioned. Her talk with Sierra from the insider, for example, was… well… great gameplay, for one thing. Make friends with the bitter chick going home. Why not?
But the reason I still think she's a contender is… Well, what do you do if the major, most compelling story of the season doesn't actually contain the winner? What if the winner was a girl (yes, it matters) who did practically nothing pre-merge and went on to win due to a semi-bitter jury and one or two big moves near the end? Oh, and she had no alliance for like, forever, and doesn't have a very big emotional relationship with anyone at all. Basically, I think you might get Erinn. Most people watch survivor for relationships and characters over strategy, and Erinn has been all-game, at least recently, so you set her up as a surprise, unexpected, yet kind-of-justified winner. You're not telling HER story, because her story isn't the season's story, but you make sure the viewer knows every step in her journey (She just went through a break up! We… know that about her for some reason!), and you have her relate closely to the theme of the season - maybe even express it verbally in her tribe's first TC.
The fact that we even know about her alliance with Joe is also kind of weird, as absolutely nothing came of it, not even in the way of doubt for a vote like the exile alliance was used (then again she didn't get to comment on his leaving so it might add up to a null sum).
I think Stephen\JT are what this season is about, right up until the finale. They are the main story. But if anyone wins but Stephen, I think it's Erinn. She is going to, at some point, to make at least one or two big moves (she said so herself!), and we are running out of time. Making a big move close to the end leaves a bigger impression in the casual viewer's mind than the entire pre-merge combined, so maybe Erinn's win doesn't need that much justification for the casual viewer.
Also - I think Edgic doesn't have the tools to accurately represent low-visibility note-worthy complex edits (such as Erinn's episode 2 bizzaro edit. You can't give the same rating to the girl who gave a speech about the season's theme and the girl who commented about eating bugs), and that's not Erinn's fault.
Still putting my metaphorical money on Stephen.
Found interesting:
Probst mentioning paranoia setting in, on the heels of Stephen having one of what I assume are many many mini-nervous-breakdowns. He just looks like he's thinking too much for his own good. Foreshadowing some doubt? The reason he loses? Something Probst always says?
Erinn survived in the wild. "I'm just a hairdresser what am I doing here" no more!
For being such a massive immunity threat, JT is neither winning challenges nor being targeted by anyone. I have no idea what this means, which is no surprise since I have no read on JT's edit what-so-ever. My read on other edits is… well… wrong a lot, but at least it's there, which is comforting. I have no idea if he goes on a run or gets super strategic all of the sudden.
Crazy baseless speculating for fun
What if Erinn wins F3 immunity, knows she can't win against Stephen OR JT and gives immunity to Stephen knowing he has to take her, hoping it might lose him a vote or two? That would be a big move. Then she would fly away to fight crime.
Observation
80% of spoiler people coming in to edgic-bash sound like idiots. Maybe for the sole reason that they CARE so much, yet try to seem like they don't.
Last Edited By: DeadNotSlipping
05/02/09 1:40 AM.
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McPhever224 |
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Coach - OTTN5
Debbie - CPN3 (Shown as lying/conniving) Erinn - MORP2 JT - MOR3 Sierra - OTTP3 (I know most people will not agree with this rating but I really think we were still supposed to be rooting for her.) Stephen - MOR3 Taj - UTRP2 Winners: 1. Stephen 2. Erinn 3. J.T. |
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fat little fingers |
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80%? "sound"?! Does that mean the other 20% are certifiable? |
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scepticA |
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The talk about why there won't be a JT/Stephen f2 (who says it won't be an F3? Just because there would be a chance for a tie hasn't stopped them
from doing it in the past) makes for interesting reading. Let's say JT wins the final immunity. who would he take? If he took Taj/Erinn/anyone but
Stephen, how would that sit with the jury? His whole persona so far would suggest that he couldn't do that. (If I was on the jury I'd give him props
for playing to win, but the jury composition will probably not be known for game smarts.)
But could JT even do that? I get the feeling that just about everything Stephen is saying to JT has the undercurrent of "Of course we're taking each other to the final 2." In fact, to me that's the more likely scenario than Stephen winning the final immunity and taking JT. Stephen would only do that if he had was confident he had many votes locked up. But Stephen is not a person edited as having a ton of confidence in the actions of other players. So let's say the F3 consists of Stephen/JT/someone. Stephen wins immunity, he'd likely take someone, but a small chance he'd take JT. Some else wins, and based on what we're seeing they would probably think they have a better chance against Stephen (more likely they're just doing an "unaware Sugar" and picking the winner), but regardless it isn't a JT/Stephen final 2. If JT wins? I do suspect he'd take his bud. And if that's the case, it will be more reminiscent of Tina/Colby than anything else. And we know how that turned out. |
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crzypunk2004 |
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I'm sorry but if Erinn gets a MOR than Taj should as well, Taj was more visible through out the episode. Erinn only had her one scene at Exile and
disappeared after that.
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RageBot |
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Am I the only one who had Stephen as his number one pick since the first episode? :S
Now, my predictions for the rest of the seasons: Debby and Coash 5th and 6th places. In the final four, Taj and Stephen vote for JT, JT votes for Stephen, Erinn have a dilemma between JT and Stephen and ultimately chooses to vote Stephen, at the tie breaker challange Stephen wins (hence giving him an entire scene for showing him making fire, while showing JT to try and never succiee in making one), Taj goes next and Stephen beats Erinn in the final while she gets Tyson's vote.
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05/02/09 10:10 AM.
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fat little fingers |
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it seems like 70% of you all sway with whatever the EDIT of the week shows. A look at the vote count gives a slightly different picture. Don't mistake a freewheeling discussion from different angles as being rudderless. The votes have remained pretty consistent. |
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chaperone |
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Edgic's done a great job this season - win or lose. I know, throwing that "win or lose" screams to the black and white folks "what's
the point if you lose?" but even when there's a "consensus" and that "consensus" correctly picks the winner there are always a
minority of edgicians who dissent, and that minority is rarely just one or two people. When there's a wrong consensus...we still come back the next
season and try to crack the new nut. (When there's no consensus there are obviously many wrong...and we still come back the next season)
Given that even on correct/consensus seasons there are people who are wrong who still come back and play the following season, it's not inappropriate to suggest that while our goal is to pick the winner, we enjoy the process, the refinement of the process, the analytical thought, the narrative analysis, etc., and each edgician in his or her own flavor. We're here as a process, we enjoy the game, talking it over, disagreeing, politicking, and so forth. Picking the winner is still the goal...but even once we have picked the winner, there's still process, enjoyment, thought, analysis, and even arguments. The winner and loser picks will speak for themselves when all is said and done. Craig was the first to post a favorably interpretation of Stephen's edit following episode 1. (Craig's the person who's rear end I now kiss since he got a shout out from Stephen on Twitter!) Several others agreed, several disagreed. Sierra had a lot of support until a few episodes back, Erinn's got a cohort of believers. Nobody's picked Debbie. Have they? JT had support early on. Coach? CL's story analysis has him in the mix, but in terms of traditional edgic I don't think anyone's picked him. But where do we stand now? At this point, it's intellectually dishonest to suggest that, in edgic's terms, Coach, Debbie, and Taj have viable edits (yes, given Bob's and Danni's I'm not suggesting that it's out of the question, but that's not what we do here - we're giving our best shot at analyzing the quantitative and qualitiative data in front of us to assess the winner). I'd put Erinn in that category too, but I know there's a crowd of people here (even a majority?) who disagree with me so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. I think it's also edgically dishonest to suggest that JT is eliminatable. I don't think he's the correct edgic pick though, because he is the person that the casual fan thinks will win. He isn't a distraction as edgic talks about a "distraction". Coach is the mighty distraction of the season, JT's the frontrunner. Now some have befuddled the terms to make the frontrunner inherit the title of distraction, but that's not what we're talking about. JT's not a distraction, he's the frontrunner, and the frontrunner's usually a decoy...until you get a Tom. But Tom had Ian as a mighty dragon slaying ally who was an equal (or greater in the edit) counterpart to take some of the focus off of Tom. Does JT have that in Stephen? Maybe. Basically...I can't see it any other way than Stephen or JT, and between the two it makes little sense to pick JT if you ask me. JT is not unlike a Terry, an Ian, or maybe even a Rafe in my mind. Unfortunately there's always a class of folks who like to win at Scrabble so much that they go to ScrabbleWordFinder.com and, not telling anyone, cheat so they look good - or so they don't look bad. Video games have even built "cheats" into it intentionally now so when you're in debt in Sim City, you can instantly have $10,000. What's the fun of that? Well, in it's place maybe it's fun to just see what you got. But the best work on this game was done before any of the cheat codes were discovered. If there are some coming out now, it's immaterial to the work that's entirely documented from episodes 1 through whatever... But me? I'm a Gary Hawkins guy, I don't usually get it right. I just enjoy the proces... |
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