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Screerider wrote:

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phantomkp wrote:

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But where i think we disagree is that if "flashing" Locke had chose to go meet "hatch" Locke, fate would intervene to stop it...cause it never happened.

I'm saying Locke can't choose something different than he already chose. It's the same choice, not two different ones. We saw him choose not to meet himself, so the paradox comes from the mere suggestion he could have chosen otherwise. It's like asking what would happen if I now decided to choose pancakes, instead of eggs, for breakfast yesterday. Too late, flapjack.

Well see, we agree...Locke in his present wouldnt choose something different...because the idea is that the choices we make are the choices we always make and always would make. Time is completed...so every choice we make in the present is a choice we already made.

Whats different here, though, is that Locke has knowledge of the past/present...which normal people wouldnt. So this gives him the opportunity to actually choose a different action than he normally would choose.

Again, i have to point to Desmond to show how this works. He was never supposed to buy Penny a wedding ring, he never did. When he timetravelled back into his younger self, he made a choice to change an action. Eloise had to show up as the ring seller to specifically tell him he never buys the ring. Yet he does anyways. Despite all the warnings and threats from Eloise. He clearly makes a choice thats different from a choice he was supposed to make.

And then Faraday, is clearly trying to make a choice thats different from from what he was supposed to make. (not talk to young Charlotte). Now, you could argue that Faraday always had made a choice in his head to not talk to young Charlotte, its not a new choice, its just that he ends up talking to her anyways somehow. And that might be very true.

But i still contend that Faraday choosing to knock on the Swan hatch and give Desmond the message is a choice that he never made before. Thus it was a different choice. Faraday was always supposed to leave that hatch with the others, never knocking. We saw a new and different choice.

So it can happen. I agree, Locke's choice to not meet his younger self is a choice he always made (thus why he never met himself in his past). Im just saying if he got it into his head to try to (like Faraday gets certain things in his head) he will get resistance from fate.

Screerider wrote:

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phantomkp wrote:

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The conceit of the show seems to be that given the opportunity to change either the past or future, there is a force out there to make sure the bubble of time stays the same. ... Your future already happened, based on choices you make, sure..but it already happened. Everything you are experiencing has already been laid out..you are just experiencing it in the moment. While that means you are making free choices, its free choices you make cause you already made them.

I smell a contradiction. Why would a "force" be needed to change the choices you already made and can't yourself change?

You can't change choices you already made. You can't change events that already happened. The future was saw, came from the past we're seeing. I think that's the premise they're going with on the show. The past is and will always be what it is. What happened happened. Faraday's said it numerous times. Fuck, it was even the title of the episode last night. "Fate" needn't exist to babysit them. The brats are going to do what they're going to do, and we're still cleaning up their mess.

There is no contradiction.

There would be no "force" needed if there wasnt the ability to time travel to the past or have knowledge of the future. But the show contains both. Which means you can actually witness the "force of fate" working.

When we say, "what happened, happened" that means you cant change anything because everything is supposed to happen the way it is. But if you try to change something that never happened, there is a force that will try and prevent that. Both Faraday and Eloise talked about course correction of fate...so it DOES exsist on the show.

And the reason they bring it up cause there IS the possibilty of people actually capable of doing something different than they were supposed to. Ala Desmond. And through Desmond, we have seen the "force" at work...no?

Screerider wrote:

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So, unless you're "special" "the opportunity to second guess and reapply new choices" ends up being impotent, and you end up doing just what history has you down as having done, right?

True...the problem is, we dont know exactly who is special like Desmond in the show of Lost or not...or why. :)