1/21/09 Ep1/2 "Because You Left" / "The Lie"

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Mickey K2		#521	[-]
Posts: 940 (01/25/09 5:34 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Nice Avatar Cindi.. Well I finally got to watch all 3 hours last night. I was not disappointed!! Then I read this entire thread and now my head hurts! lol Ok just some things I wanted to note: I LOVED the record skipping at Candle's house then Dan using that to explain to Sawyer what was going on. Although not as HOT as Sawyer and Jack, Dan is becoming my new fave. I don't believe that Locke as a spider bite ala Nikki and Paulo, Ben took him to the meat market to be put in the fridge, cause you know, he's dead and all. Loved Ana pulling over Hurley and even telling him Libby says HI. When Hurley was running to the cops I was yelling, WTF did Ana tell you!! I was getting SO annoyed with Neil, when he started bitching I was so waiting for his head to explode then came the flying flame, I loved it. I hope we get to see Paolo and Nikki just to fuck with their haters! Wasn't their show shown on the TV, Expose, I believe Hurley's dad was watching it. I figured that was the way the writers were throwing them in there. Dan said they couldn't change the past. So when Locke talked to Ethan and told him his name and that Ben made him leader, is it possible that he changed the past, and Ethan told Ben about Locke, and this is why Ben didn't want his people to know that Locke was special?
phantomkp		#522	[-]
Posts: 374 (01/25/09 5:35 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Cassidy666 wrote: Or to put it another way, imagine a long string that is the Lost timeline. It stretches out all the way into the future, to a point when all that has happened has already happened and all the time travel within that timeline has occurred. Whatever the time travel caused, it's already accounted for. The Lost story is told by showing various parts of this long string in a certain order and it will be internally consistant. So whatever we have been shown doesn't change but what we will see from the time travel might look at past events from another angle to show things in a larger context, but it won't change past events, and might even in some cases be cause for them. This is completely right. And goes back to my belief (well, based on what Lindelof keeps simplying) that every things we see will happen, and nothing will be changed due to time travel. Cause it already has. Those first few seasons, with the whispers and the bizarre character actions in spots, happened because of possible intervention from the future losties. We wont see the losties skip back in time to Shannons death and see them stop her from dying, but we might see them go back and actually have played a part in her dying! All their time skipping has already happened from our point of view from season 1. Should be fun to see how it plays out :)
phantomkp		#523	[-]
Posts: 375 (01/25/09 5:39 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Mickey K2 wrote: Dan said they couldn't change the past. So when Locke talked to Ethan and told him his name and that Ben made him leader, is it possible that he changed the past, and Ethan told Ben about Locke, and this is why Ben didn't want his people to know that Locke was special? Well no, the idea would be that when we saw Ethan and Ben in season 2 or whatever...at least Ethan had the knowledge of meeting Locke before. And if he did tell Ben, Ben also had the knowledge. Because when we were watching season 2, Locke had already gone back in time and talked to Ethan. We just hadnt seen it from Lockes POV yet. But all that stuff already happened. So, if that intervention DID affect stuff, we already saw the affect of it and what happened because of it...
cindidindi76		#524	[-]
Posts: 14870 (01/25/09 5:41 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	And here's a cap of the baby: I could only find two, and the other one is all shadowy, so you couldn't really see at all.
PoChop		#525	[-]
Posts: 1830 (01/25/09 6:23 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I'm intrigued about people popping in an out of time relative to other people or themselves. Very often in the past our Losties have shushed themselves into the brush, hiding as people walked past them. Those people could have been themselves (from the future) and by hiding they wouldn't have realized it might be themselves. Alternately those strange people walking by could have been almost any group of people from the past or future walking by but who were unstuck in time. Or they could have been people not unstuck in time, like Ben and company. We might also be able to explain how people who were apparently dead were able to appear to Hurley, Ben, or other folks and appear to be completely real before popping out of the present "reality." Those people would probably have needed to be involved with the island previously perhaps because of the "incident." Libby, Anna Lucia, the mental ward guy, Ben's mother, the hippie Dharma dude who was building the cabin, Jack's father, and Claire. Am I missing anyone? Oh yeah, maybe the Hurley bird, the smoke monster, the paralysis spiders, and maybe a TRex that ate the 815 pilot. In other words these people might have been jumping around time (unstuck in time) prior to kicking the bucket. I'm also wondering if Frogurt is still unstuck in time even though he's dead. Is his body still time jumping with the rest of the folks? If his dead body isn't jumping you'd think the Losties could have found his body and not realized it was Frogurt. Frogurt might have even found his own bones. Creepy. Last Edited By: PoChop 01/25/09 6:29 PM. Edited 2 times.
WiscBadger95		#526	[-]
Posts: 13026 (01/25/09 6:33 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Antithesys wrote: spanellers1 wrote: Alright, three questions/inconsistencies about the time traveling issue. 1. This is a long one. Near the end of the first hour, there was a point where the island went back in time from when the hatch was exploded back to when the hatch was intact, leading to Daniel contacting Desmond. According to LostPedia, both Desmond and Juliet were on the island three years before the crash. The only way that Juliet would have transported with the Losties and not with the island (like the other Others) is if she was not on the island at the time they transported to. Right? This means Desmond arrived on the island just briefly before Juliet did and that was the point they travelled to. The problem I see is that, from what I remember, Kelvin Innman didn't let Desmond leave the hatch for the first significant part of his stay on the island. Thus, the current Losties would have transported to a point sometime after Desmond's arrival, meaning Juliet would have been on the island with the Others at the time of the transportation, yet she stayed with the Losties in the current setting. Am I missing something? 2. On the real world timeline, Daniel contacted Desmond sometime before the crash. On the Losties timeline, Daniel contacted Desmond hours after the O6 left the island. If these are true, why is it that Desmond didn't realize his memory of this until three years after leaving the island? 3. Now we've heard grey-haired lady and Faraday talk about how the future cannot be changed. So why is it that when the Losties travelled back in time and got attacked by flaming arrows, Frogert was able to die by fire? Wouldn't that mean he was never on 815 and was never part of the Losties experience on the island? 1. You're confused. There's nothing that says they can't be on the island at the same time as their past selves. They just can't get into situations where they cause paradoxes, i.e. changing the future. The example most commonly cited is meeting one's past self (if that meeting didn't occur the "first" time around). Keep in mind that "they can't" doesn't mean "if you do there'll be big trouble", it means "it is physically impossible", like moving faster than light. 2. Unknown. It does seem convenient and contrived. It's not impossible to forget about something until a random point in the future though. 3. Again, you're confused. Frogurt isn't removed from the island's history simply because he died in the past. He was born, lived, and died, just like everybody, it's just that because he slipped into a time warp his death happened to occur before his birth (or in the middle of his life or whenever they ended up). Nothing about his death changed anything in the timeline. If you went back to Hiroshima in 1945 and were killed in the atomic blast, why would you be erased from existence? The thing y'all have to remember, and a concept that's tough to wrap one's mind around, is that time is not linear on the island. Linear time is what we experience in our everyday lives -- yesterday is always the past, today is always the present, tomorrow is always the future. You can also think of it as an arrow -- once it's fired it travels in a single direction, a straight line. In non-linear time, you can go from today, to Oct. 11, 1922, to Feb. 27, 2095, to yesterday -- in that order. Thus, just because you go to a day that is before you were born and get killed, doesn't mean that you suddenly never existed. Yeah, I know it's really screwy, and like I said, it's a tough concept for a person to get their mind around.
FeliciaM7		#527	[-]
Posts: 6580 (01/25/09 7:23 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I got the show til I read all these posts.
Mickey K2		#528	[-]
Posts: 942 (01/25/09 7:56 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I feel ya! lol
stacy1201		#529	[-]
Posts: 234 (01/25/09 9:39 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Questions about the opening scenes: Marvin Candle's wife/girlfriend looked familiar....have we seen her before? Any ideas about the significance of his different names on the orientation videos? He says "Wickman" in some and "Candle" in others, and when the Dharma worker ran up during the filming, it sounded like he said "Dr. Chang!" Has anyone noticed any sort of pattern as to which names he uses for which stations?
Fluffynurse		#530	[-]
Posts: 15167 (01/25/09 9:47 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Then there's also John Locke aka Jeremy Bentham.
spanellers1		#531	[-]
Posts: 659 (01/25/09 10:25 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I don't believe that Locke as a spider bite ala Nikki and Paulo, Ben took him to the meat market to be put in the fridge, cause you know, he's dead and all. I don't think Locke has a spider bite, but I do think that once he gets brought back to the island, he will heal in some sense, or get some form of existence breathed into him again ala Christian Shepard. And, thus, he KNEW he could die in the outside word and still later live again on the island.
CoconutPhone		#532	[-]
Posts: 15652 (01/25/09 10:42 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Or he could turn into a Mary Alice-esque narrator. "But soon enough my friends on the island learned that there was more than way... to skin a boar.."
pussycow		#533	[-]
Posts: 4131 (01/25/09 10:52 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	WiscBadger95 wrote: Antithesys wrote: spanellers1 wrote: Alright, three questions/inconsistencies about the time traveling issue. 1. This is a long one. Near the end of the first hour, there was a point where the island went back in time from when the hatch was exploded back to when the hatch was intact, leading to Daniel contacting Desmond. According to LostPedia, both Desmond and Juliet were on the island three years before the crash. The only way that Juliet would have transported with the Losties and not with the island (like the other Others) is if she was not on the island at the time they transported to. Right? This means Desmond arrived on the island just briefly before Juliet did and that was the point they travelled to. The problem I see is that, from what I remember, Kelvin Innman didn't let Desmond leave the hatch for the first significant part of his stay on the island. Thus, the current Losties would have transported to a point sometime after Desmond's arrival, meaning Juliet would have been on the island with the Others at the time of the transportation, yet she stayed with the Losties in the current setting. Am I missing something? 2. On the real world timeline, Daniel contacted Desmond sometime before the crash. On the Losties timeline, Daniel contacted Desmond hours after the O6 left the island. If these are true, why is it that Desmond didn't realize his memory of this until three years after leaving the island? 3. Now we've heard grey-haired lady and Faraday talk about how the future cannot be changed. So why is it that when the Losties travelled back in time and got attacked by flaming arrows, Frogert was able to die by fire? Wouldn't that mean he was never on 815 and was never part of the Losties experience on the island? 1. You're confused. There's nothing that says they can't be on the island at the same time as their past selves. They just can't get into situations where they cause paradoxes, i.e. changing the future. The example most commonly cited is meeting one's past self (if that meeting didn't occur the "first" time around). Keep in mind that "they can't" doesn't mean "if you do there'll be big trouble", it means "it is physically impossible", like moving faster than light. 2. Unknown. It does seem convenient and contrived. It's not impossible to forget about something until a random point in the future though. 3. Again, you're confused. Frogurt isn't removed from the island's history simply because he died in the past. He was born, lived, and died, just like everybody, it's just that because he slipped into a time warp his death happened to occur before his birth (or in the middle of his life or whenever they ended up). Nothing about his death changed anything in the timeline. If you went back to Hiroshima in 1945 and were killed in the atomic blast, why would you be erased from existence? The thing y'all have to remember, and a concept that's tough to wrap one's mind around, is that time is not linear on the island. Linear time is what we experience in our everyday lives -- yesterday is always the past, today is always the present, tomorrow is always the future. You can also think of it as an arrow -- once it's fired it travels in a single direction, a straight line. In non-linear time, you can go from today, to Oct. 11, 1922, to Feb. 27, 2095, to yesterday -- in that order. Thus, just because you go to a day that is before you were born and get killed, doesn't mean that you suddenly never existed. Yeah, I know it's really screwy, and like I said, it's a tough concept for a person to get their mind around. Doesn't seem that tough to me. If you are born in 1970 and in 2010 you go back to 1960 and get killed, you died when you were 40, not -10. The time you died in is irrelevant. Your personal timeline still moves linearly. Now if you go back and kill you mother, your fucked. Or if they don't kiss at the Fish Under The Sea Dance. Of course both these scenarios would supposedly be impossible under Lost's time travel rules.....except for Desmond....GREAT SCOT! Any ideas about the significance of his different names on the orientation videos? He says "Wickman" in some and "Candle" in others, and when the Dharma worker ran up during the filming, it sounded like he said "Dr. Chang!" Has anyone noticed any sort of pattern as to which names he uses for which stations? His real name is Dr Pierre Change. In the videos he uses an alias. Wickmund, Candle and Halliwax have been used according to Lostpedia...all referencing candles in some degree (Wick, Candle (A-DOY!), and wax.) more info: http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Pierre_Chang#Name Last Edited By: pussycow 01/26/09 12:03 AM. Edited 1 times.
DelosWorld		#534	[-]
Posts: 819 (01/25/09 11:23 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	cindidindi76 wrote: And here's a cap of the baby: I could only find two, and the other one is all shadowy, so you couldn't really see at all. That could be Miles, but it could also be that crazy Asian tatoo chick that Jack ran into in Thailand, or wherever that was. And if the kid is adopted it could be almost anyone! It doesn't look all that Asian to me, particularly since the hair seems brown-blondish, but who knows?
Mickey K2		#535	[-]
Posts: 943 (01/26/09 12:26 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I'm guessing it's Miles, he wanted to stay for a reason, and he is probably considered "special" seeing as he can talk to the dead. but it could also be that crazy Asian tatoo chick that Jack ran into in Thailand NOOOOO. No more Bia Ling! Please!!
SardonicallyIrrelevant		#536	[-]
Posts: 19187 (01/26/09 12:54 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	CoconutPhone wrote: Or he could turn into a Mary Alice-esque narrator. "But soon enough my friends on the island learned that there was more than way... to skin a boar.." In the finale we will learn that Beau Bridges was responsible for everything that happened. He was always just out of the camera's view.
Antithesys		#537	[-]
Posts: 23789 (01/26/09 1:47 AM) Gadabout Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I'm also wondering if Frogurt is still unstuck in time even though he's dead. Is his body still time jumping with the rest of the folks? If his dead body isn't jumping you'd think the Losties could have found his body and not realized it was Frogurt. Frogurt might have even found his own bones. Creepy. Something tells me this is another convenient gloss-over by the writers, and that Frogurt's body is no longer jumping, which is consistent with the inconsistencies of what jumps and what doesn't (there's no logical reason why only the humans and Vincent and their clothes and the raft would jump). I love the show but they really opened up the nitpicker's can of worms with this time travel stuff.
phantomkp		#538	[-]
Posts: 376 (01/26/09 3:03 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Well, it might be less inconsistent to explain whats happening this way: its the island skipping around in time...not the people on it. Thus, every man made thing on their person stays with them. Which is why Locke keeps his knife (and richards sundial!), Sawyer keeps his clothes, and Danny keeps the raft. Of course, when Danny stepped off the raft and away from it, and time shifted again, the rafte doesnt go with him any more cause hes no longer holding onto it :P
chidelta		#539	[-]
Posts: 1161 (01/26/09 10:43 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Oh i think we saw Ben in the last couple of seasons working very hard to keep the 6 from leaving. Locke has too. So has the island. It was only when Locke became the new conduit to the island that Ben stopped really "knowing" what needed to be done. Again, i think none of them could stop the 6 because of Desmond's (and maybe Walts) wacky influence. I agree with your first statement, phantom, and that's part of what's bugging me. They all worked so hard to control the Losties' behavior and to prevent people from leaving the island or communicating with the outside world . . . intimidation, kidnapping, murder, shootings, stabbings, explosions, etc. So to me, it's just too convenient that Ben and Locke (and the island) stepped back and allowed to happen what they had worked so hard to prevent. It's like a defensive line that stops the ball on the five yard line for three downs, and then steps aside to allow a touchdown on fourth down. Even worse, a touchdown with potentially catastrophic consequences for the island (okay, I'll concede that we don't know whether Ben could have foreseen the time glitch or whatever other event is going on that he and Mrs. H. are worried about). I do like the idea of fate v. free will, and have always enjoyed how that dovetails into the island's ability to heal and/or redeem, but still think the whole leaving the island thing smacks of a writer's device to demonstrate the conflict. My example of Aaron probably works best. The "island", in the form of Christian Shepherd, had a perfect opportunity to keep Aaron in Claire's custody (and on the island) when she wandered off. She could have taken Aaron with her on her journey into her spooky new family. But instead she leaves him stranded in the jungle for Sawyer to find and later hand off to Kate (who coincidentally yearns for a life of stability and family). As an infant/toddler he hasn't developed his own free will, so the "lesson" is lost on him. Thus, his presence off the island and the need to bring him back is all about Kate and Jack (and a method of tugging at the heartstrings of the average viewer . . . I loved the impact of the nephew reveal last season). Assuming that Desmond and Walt were allowed to leave because they were special and above the rules, the same argument could be made for Aaron's exempt status (as evidenced by the supposed psychic's prediction that he is special and the general treatment of Aaron as The Chosen One), yet he is one of the 6 that have to come back (not Walt, and not Desmond). You made a good point about Ben having dual motivations for insisting they come back. I'm going to predict that Ben is only partially right about the 6 needing to come back, and that both Desmond and Walt will ultimately be part of the equation (Daniel knows about Desmond, but not really about Walt yet). Bringing Walt back into the fold will also be a big payoff for many viewers, and now they have the perfect explanation for his amazing growth spurt. Hey Felicia (and others), sorry if I'm contributing to hurting your brain, I'm just trying to purge mine.
FeliciaM7		#540	[-]
Posts: 6585 (01/26/09 3:19 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Hey Felicia (and others), sorry if I'm contributing to hurting your brain, I'm just trying to purge mine. My brain isn't hurting because I'm not trying to figure anything out. I'll just wait for the show to give me the answers. There are waaay too many theories here for me to subscribe to. This stuff is funny.. "Alpert is ageless, but Faraday is just a time traveler"... "but maybe Faraday is ageless, too"... "NO, Alpert and Daniel are just time travelers, neither are ageless"... I DON'T CARE. We'll find out sooner or later. Maybe. Wait, what am I saying?? Yes, you hurt my brain. Kiss it and make it better please!

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1/21/09 Ep1/2 "Because You Left" / "The Lie"

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