1/21/09 Ep1/2 "Because You Left" / "The Lie"

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ItsMeDeb		#501	[-]
Posts: 702 (01/23/09 6:21 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	When Ben went to the butcher shop, he asked Jill, "Have Gabriel and Jeffrey checked in yet?"...who're Gabriel and Jeffrey?
cindidindi76		#502	[-]
Posts: 14844 (01/23/09 6:22 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Dunno yet.
Cheyenie		#503	[-]
Posts: 710 (01/23/09 6:37 PM) MESS member Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	tigeranne wrote: My golden rule about Ben : if he is speaking, he is lying. Thus, I don't believe Widmore had Nadia killed. I don't believe that Ben can't return to the island. I think that's a good rule to have. But, for some reason I believe Ben about not being able to return to the island. Although, it's probably a half truth. I bet he can't return to the island until the Oceanic 6 return.
Mutan		#504	[-]
Posts: 2810 (01/23/09 6:46 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I thought the soldiers might have been from the Australian listing group on the island in WWII. Hurley got the numbers from some guy from oz, and Hurley talked to his wife when he went to find out about the numbers origins in season 1 or 2. The uniforms match that eras style olive drab with blue name plates. I also thought that the bleeding nose was an early sign of the problems associated with the time differential. The guys on the boat got it and went nuts. Miles went back to see desmond at the hatch because Desmond was his "constant" and it kept his time grounded so to speak.
spanellers1		#505	[-]
Posts: 658 (01/23/09 8:59 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Alright, three questions/inconsistencies about the time traveling issue. 1. This is a long one. Near the end of the first hour, there was a point where the island went back in time from when the hatch was exploded back to when the hatch was intact, leading to Daniel contacting Desmond. According to LostPedia, both Desmond and Juliet were on the island three years before the crash. The only way that Juliet would have transported with the Losties and not with the island (like the other Others) is if she was not on the island at the time they transported to. Right? This means Desmond arrived on the island just briefly before Juliet did and that was the point they travelled to. The problem I see is that, from what I remember, Kelvin Innman didn't let Desmond leave the hatch for the first significant part of his stay on the island. Thus, the current Losties would have transported to a point sometime after Desmond's arrival, meaning Juliet would have been on the island with the Others at the time of the transportation, yet she stayed with the Losties in the current setting. Am I missing something? 2. On the real world timeline, Daniel contacted Desmond sometime before the crash. On the Losties timeline, Daniel contacted Desmond hours after the O6 left the island. If these are true, why is it that Desmond didn't realize his memory of this until three years after leaving the island? 3. Now we've heard grey-haired lady and Faraday talk about how the future cannot be changed. So why is it that when the Losties travelled back in time and got attacked by flaming arrows, Frogert was able to die by fire? Wouldn't that mean he was never on 815 and was never part of the Losties experience on the island?
TheEasyOne		#506	[-]
Posts: 1319 (01/23/09 9:09 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	ErgotOgre wrote: I'm still hung up on Mrs. Hawkings/antique store lady and whether or not she's Dan's mother. I realized I was thinking too linearly by discounting the possibility because Mrs. Hawkings was (apparently) working in her lab in California when Desmond was supposed to be looking for her in Oxford. Breaking it down more fundamentally, when Dan tells Desmond to find his mother in Oxford sometime during the three years that Desmond is living in the hatch, how can he control when Desmond is going to have this dream/memory? Linearly, Desmond has the dream/memory three years after getting off the island and sets out to find Dan's mother in Oxford, but since the original message was given to him years before, would Dan know where his mother would be when Desmond remembered? Will Desmond go to Oxford, only to discover that she's in California, travel there to find her and hook up with the O6 there? Given the writers' penchant for intertwined characters and coincidental meetings, I'm having a hard time convincing myself that Mrs. Hawking won't turn out to be Dan's mother, especially since the first time Desmond met her it was in England (London, 1996 according to Lostpedia.) We would expect to find her in England. If it wasn't for Ben telling Jack "I'll pick you up in six hours" I would have believed Ben to have gone to England to talk with her, possibly even in the basement of the antique store, which appears from the screen caps to be a very old building - and I noticed a stone column in the corner of the "lab" she was working in. Ooh. Headspins. Thanks for the correction on the 20 hours/70 hours thing. I need to watch both episodes again before next week. i'm thinking before the island shifted backwards in time, desmond and daniel NEVER met on the island. it would be a gaping plot hole since desmond was supposed to be isolated for the whole 3 years he was in the hatch alone. realistically it's not as if desmond would of forgotten the whole event right after it happened. desmond "suddenly" remembering his meeting with daniel happened because the event only recently happened when the original timeline was changed. as for why desmond did not remember 1996 daniel after he came out of the hatch, its because his "constant" sickness and consiousness travelling hadn't begun yet.
TheEasyOne		#507	[-]
Posts: 1320 (01/23/09 9:23 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	spanellers1 wrote: Alright, three questions/inconsistencies about the time traveling issue. 1. This is a long one. Near the end of the first hour, there was a point where the island went back in time from when the hatch was exploded back to when the hatch was intact, leading to Daniel contacting Desmond. According to LostPedia, both Desmond and Juliet were on the island three years before the crash. The only way that Juliet would have transported with the Losties and not with the island (like the other Others) is if she was not on the island at the time they transported to. Right? This means Desmond arrived on the island just briefly before Juliet did and that was the point they travelled to. The problem I see is that, from what I remember, Kelvin Innman didn't let Desmond leave the hatch for the first significant part of his stay on the island. Thus, the current Losties would have transported to a point sometime after Desmond's arrival, meaning Juliet would have been on the island with the Others at the time of the transportation, yet she stayed with the Losties in the current setting. Am I missing something? 2. On the real world timeline, Daniel contacted Desmond sometime before the crash. On the Losties timeline, Daniel contacted Desmond hours after the O6 left the island. If these are true, why is it that Desmond didn't realize his memory of this until three years after leaving the island? 3. Now we've heard grey-haired lady and Faraday talk about how the future cannot be changed. So why is it that when the Losties travelled back in time and got attacked by flaming arrows, Frogert was able to die by fire? Wouldn't that mean he was never on 815 and was never part of the Losties experience on the island? for number 3, maybe the island wants to "remove" the losties (aka kill them all) because they do not belong at that point in time. another form course correction possibly? by the future being unable to change, that doesn't mean frogert was immortal. whether in one minute or ten years, as a person he was going to die. his future did not change. his death was probably course correction (maybe he and the others that were on the zodiac were meant to be on the freighter when it exploded). frogert had a past form, and a present form, but no future form because he was going to die. his past form (assuming he's like 30 was probably not born yet or a little while after he was born when his present form was shot with the arrow. if his past form had already been born, it would be off the island).
Antithesys		#508	[-]
Posts: 23783 (01/24/09 1:17 AM) Gadabout Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	spanellers1 wrote: Alright, three questions/inconsistencies about the time traveling issue. 1. This is a long one. Near the end of the first hour, there was a point where the island went back in time from when the hatch was exploded back to when the hatch was intact, leading to Daniel contacting Desmond. According to LostPedia, both Desmond and Juliet were on the island three years before the crash. The only way that Juliet would have transported with the Losties and not with the island (like the other Others) is if she was not on the island at the time they transported to. Right? This means Desmond arrived on the island just briefly before Juliet did and that was the point they travelled to. The problem I see is that, from what I remember, Kelvin Innman didn't let Desmond leave the hatch for the first significant part of his stay on the island. Thus, the current Losties would have transported to a point sometime after Desmond's arrival, meaning Juliet would have been on the island with the Others at the time of the transportation, yet she stayed with the Losties in the current setting. Am I missing something? 2. On the real world timeline, Daniel contacted Desmond sometime before the crash. On the Losties timeline, Daniel contacted Desmond hours after the O6 left the island. If these are true, why is it that Desmond didn't realize his memory of this until three years after leaving the island? 3. Now we've heard grey-haired lady and Faraday talk about how the future cannot be changed. So why is it that when the Losties travelled back in time and got attacked by flaming arrows, Frogert was able to die by fire? Wouldn't that mean he was never on 815 and was never part of the Losties experience on the island? 1. You're confused. There's nothing that says they can't be on the island at the same time as their past selves. They just can't get into situations where they cause paradoxes, i.e. changing the future. The example most commonly cited is meeting one's past self (if that meeting didn't occur the "first" time around). Keep in mind that "they can't" doesn't mean "if you do there'll be big trouble", it means "it is physically impossible", like moving faster than light. 2. Unknown. It does seem convenient and contrived. It's not impossible to forget about something until a random point in the future though. 3. Again, you're confused. Frogurt isn't removed from the island's history simply because he died in the past. He was born, lived, and died, just like everybody, it's just that because he slipped into a time warp his death happened to occur before his birth (or in the middle of his life or whenever they ended up). Nothing about his death changed anything in the timeline. If you went back to Hiroshima in 1945 and were killed in the atomic blast, why would you be erased from existence?
phantomkp		#509	[-]
Posts: 369 (01/24/09 4:02 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	pussycow wrote: phantomkp wrote: pussycow wrote: You know what I am confused about? How does lying about what happened on the island help the people on the island? I mean, Widmore knows the island is there. Lying about what happened with the crash isn't going to change that. Anyone who wants to get to the island for any reason knows about it and a fake story isn't going to change anything. Jack explained it that Widmore is so powerful (enough to fake a fake plane crash with dead bodies) and so intent for people to think there were no survivors...that if they started discounting that fakery, Widmore would have them killed. Makes sense to me, i guess I guess. But it seems to me that if Widmore found the island again he would just kill everyone on it anyway i meant kill the Oceanic 6
phantomkp		#510	[-]
Posts: 370 (01/24/09 4:04 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	BJ wrote: pussycow wrote: phantomkp wrote: pussycow wrote: You know what I am confused about? How does lying about what happened on the island help the people on the island? I mean, Widmore knows the island is there. Lying about what happened with the crash isn't going to change that. Anyone who wants to get to the island for any reason knows about it and a fake story isn't going to change anything. Jack explained it that Widmore is so powerful (enough to fake a fake plane crash with dead bodies) and so intent for people to think there were no survivors...that if they started discounting that fakery, Widmore would have them killed. Makes sense to me, i guess I guess. But it seems to me that if Widmore found the island again he would just kill everyone on it anyway I think the lying was to prevent the rest of the world from learning about the island. Jack could have cared less about the world finding the island at that time.
phantomkp		#511	[-]
Posts: 371 (01/24/09 4:24 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	chidelta wrote: Phantom. Your explanation is appreciated and highly plausible, although I still see some holes. The theory that Ben (and Mrs. H) want those 6 back because it is their destiny to stay on the island just seems too simple considering Ben's history. He's an evil and reckless dude, and always has some personal motive, something more than saving the world or saving the Losties, so I have a hard time believing that he is only carrying out the island's wishes or assisting in a "course correction". Why is that so hard to believe? Nothing Ben has done has suggested to me hes trying to buck fate...or go against what the island wants. Sure it may be personal, cause Mrs H certainly makes it seem as if its life and death for both of them if things arent corrected, no? Why cant Ben be self serving and be trying to keep the islands' wishes in check? Maybe they are two sides of the same coin. If those 6 weren't supposed to leave (and Desmond and Walt were supposed to because they are special and above the rules), then why didn't Ben or the island stop the 6 from leaving in the first place. To teach them a lesson? To make it their decision to return? Maybe. But what about Aaron. If the island needed him, why not keep him in Claire's custody when feeding her the Kool-Aid. Ben not only let them all leave he encouraged it. And the island itself has a history of killing people, including those who have reached their redemption point (Boone, Shannon) and those who are in the way somehow (pilot, Mr. Eko), so why not just hire smokey the monster to destroy the helicopter before it leaves? Oh i think we saw Ben in the last couple of seasons working very hard to keep the 6 from leaving. Locke has too. So has the island. It was only when Locke became the new conduit to the island that Ben stopped really "knowing" what needed to be done. Again, i think none of them could stop the 6 because of Desmond's (and maybe Walts) wacky influence. I suppose we can chalk a lot of it up to destiny being "a fickle bitch" (still one of my favorite quotes from last season), but I'm not ready to accept destiny, or "the island made them do it", or Jacob the omnicient told Ben and Locke to let everyone go before calling them back, as the convenient explanation for all of this. To me, it's equally plausible (albeit more cynical) to believe that the only reason the Oceanic 6 got off the island was to give the writers a change of scenery and a new set of story lines to work with. In regards to smokey above, the island (fate) faltering apparently...i think THATS the major point of the show. Destiny vs Free Will. Can we really change our fate? Or is it like Mrs. H said, there is no way. Or like Dan theorizes, that no matter what you do, you cant. But we all know that Dan's theory is just that. Doesnt mean its gospel. There obviously are some holes in the theory (Desmond). So, i think the next 2 seasons will be about who does win, fate or free will? Its a good fight. So, yea, no matter how hard the island tries, with all its means...it might not be able to keep things how they are supposed to be. And yea, no matter how much the losties try, even with their newfound ability to time travel and possibly affect things...maybe they might not be able to change anything. Or maybe they will. Maybe the island will correct the variances. I think thats the whole conflict of the show! Should be an interesting struggle to watch :)
phantomkp		#512	[-]
Posts: 372 (01/24/09 4:27 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	chidelta wrote: Ben not only let them all leave he encouraged it. Not exactly. Ben told Sayid and Kate that the copter was all theres and to leave. He didn't necessarily think those people were going to go with them. Or maybe he planned on them all getting blown up on the boat when he killed Keamy. Didn't he also tell Hurley (or somebody?) that he better hurry if he plans on catching the helicopter? Anyway, my point is that if he wanted to stop them or prevent them from leaving the island he did a pretty piss poor job. True, but he also let Micheal leave, didnt he? Maybe thats why Jacob never talks to Ben...he doesnt do that good of a job for the island lol. Obviously the island wanted Michael back, and got him. So, maybe Ben thought letting the helicopter go wouldnt be so bad either? Maybe he had TOO much faith in the island to correct such things.
sasketoon		#513	[-]
Posts: 123 (01/24/09 10:02 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	1. You're confused. There's nothing that says they can't be on the island at the same time as their past selves. They just can't get into situations where they cause paradoxes, i.e. changing the future. The example most commonly cited is meeting one's past self (if that meeting didn't occur the "first" time around). Keep in mind that "they can't" doesn't mean "if you do there'll be big trouble", it means "it is physically impossible", like moving faster than light. Perhaps someone like Locke could still influence the future by turning out to be Jacob, who is heard and not seen and passes information (like how to move the island) to the people who visit the cabin (which may be moving in space and time?) based on the future information he has.
ByAnyOtherName		#514	[-]
Posts: 263 (01/24/09 10:37 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Just had a thought. Desmond is special, and seemingly able to bend the rules. All of the bad stuff is happening because the Oceanic 6 was not supposed to leave the island. The thing that allowed them to leave the island was Charlie shutting down the looking glass station, but he wasn't supposed to be alive to do that. He was only able because Desmond saved him. If Charlie had died the first time, as he was supposed to, he never would have shut down the looking glass station (maybe someone else would have, but who knows), preventing them from calling their boat, preventing Desmond from calling Penny and summoning her boat. So maybe all of the bad things are happening as a sort of punishment/retribution for the Oceanic 6 leaving the island because Charlie lived longer than he was supposed to and did things that weren't supposed to be done. Just something I was thinking about.
The SovereignOne		#515	[-]
Posts: 1314 (01/25/09 8:04 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	---^ But you can always argue that Charlie was absolutley supposed to die that night and that if Desmond hadn't continued to save him up until that point that something even worse may have happened to not only the 06 but everyone on the island. Granted, what we are seeing going on now isn't exactly the definition of peachy...
Cassidy666		#516	[-]
Posts: 9475 (01/25/09 11:30 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Antithesys wrote: Aside from the first Terminator film, the other appearance of this kind of time travel in major pop culture occurs in Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban. The film version portrays it better than the novel. Yep. This is how I view Lost is allowing the story to unfold. Everything that has happened has happened and what will happen will happen, cause and effect will still occur in a logical self-contained way even within the time travel confines. Or to put it another way, imagine a long string that is the Lost timeline. It stretches out all the way into the future, to a point when all that has happened has already happened and all the time travel within that timeline has occurred. Whatever the time travel caused, it's already accounted for. The Lost story is told by showing various parts of this long string in a certain order and it will be internally consistant. So whatever we have been shown doesn't change but what we will see from the time travel might look at past events from another angle to show things in a larger context, but it won't change past events, and might even in some cases be cause for them. As for Desmond being an anomaly, so far he's the only person shown to be able to affect things because he can see things from outside the timeline. Not only that, his future self can see things from his own past self's POV, which could explain how he saw Faraday in the future when he visited him in the past and forgot about it until then.
VolumeOn		#517	[-]
Posts: 1162 (01/25/09 12:47 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I watched it again to see if I could pick up on things that I missed the first time around. Most of this has probably already been mentioned and, for that, I apologize. In Destiny Calls: "Sun's kind of in this tragic place because she's back in the real world and living with the tragedy of believing that her husband died in this freighter explosion". So, he didn't die? Jin survived when the raft sank so maybe he's destined for something greater. In Because You Left, The Lie: The alarm clock that wakens Marvin Candle is set for 8:15. The same as the Oceanic flight. The miner that was injured in the Dharma Orchid had a bloody nose similar to Charlotte. Did Daniel time travel to the Orchid construction site or did he time travel from it to the present? I'm with everyone else in believing that Ben sent the phony lawyers to Kate to scare her into returning to the island. When Ben said that he needed to move John's coffin to somewhere safe, Jack remarked that John was dead, wasn't he? Ben didn't answer the question. Props to Ben for defending Jack when Jill the Butcher made the disparaging remark about Jack's pill habit. How did Miles know that the boar had been dead for three hours? Did he just find it lying there? Perhaps his ghost-whispering ability helped him find the dead boar. Big props to casting as they did a remarkable job finding a little boy to portray Aaron that truly resembles Claire.
pussycow		#518	[-]
Posts: 4121 (01/25/09 1:13 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Yeah most of that has been mentioned/discussed. As for the lawyers being Ben's men, perhaps they are the Jeffrey and Gabriel that Ben asked Jill about (that has probably been speculated already also)
tinky		#519	[-]
Posts: 42 (01/25/09 3:57 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Does anyone have a screen cap of the baby that was in the openeing sequence? There is a whole lot of spec as to who the baby is, and I'm hoping a pic will at least confirm (or not) that the baby is asian.
cindidindi76		#520	[-]
Posts: 14866 (01/25/09 5:08 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	The baby was definitely Asian.

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1/21/09 Ep1/2 "Because You Left" / "The Lie"

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