S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon in Survivor Speculation Forum

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S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon

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Oowatanite		#5241	[-]
Posts: 6667 (12/30/08 02:28 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Remove this ad Phoenix1269 wrote: INV0 - Invisible A character, within the episode, that is edited to be irrelevant or insignificant to any of the stories. In terms of story... they don't have one. The character... had no confessionals or tribal council questions ~~pre-merge; little or no confessionals or tribal council questions in the mid to late episodes.~~ was ignored, lacking even in screen/face time; receives NO SPECIAL FOCUS during group exchanges such as intros and pick-ems was portrayed as irrelevant to the episode or story and / or is lacking in any character development. received NO important or significant SPV Since INV is "my baby", here we go. I think we should start using INV0 to help differentiate it from UTR1. This 0 should be reflected at the voting site as well. "Within the episode" means from the first scene after the recap to the end of the final words of the bootee. Even if the recap has "new scenes" or a "new spin" on the happenings in the previous episodes, we should NOT include it in this episode's ratings. The recap should ONLY be used for possible "clues" that help point out the winner to us. For example, let's go out on a limb and say that Randy was an asshole in the previous episode and thus received his proper OTTN for this episode. Even if the recap at the beginning of the next episode showed this negativity again, Randy should not be "tagged" as negative right away UNLESS there is furthur confessionals or camp discussions about what an asshole he was in the last TC or the last IC. If you have even one confessional or TCQ at any point in the season, you are "saved" from an INV. An example of "special focus" during pick 'ems is Bob being highlighted by Probst as still being available. It is not Corinne choosing Susie because she didn't want to be the only girl on her team. The SPV must be important or significant. For example, Bob's inclusion in the Onion alliance. It cannot be "Randy stinks today" or "Susie yawned". Or Marcus ran through a bunch of names including Susie. P.S. As far as challenges helping save someone from INV, it has to be something that is either "highlighted" (not simply mentioned) by Probst, or something more obvious like Ken beating Bob in the puzzle IC or Matty outlasting Bob in the endurance IC or Randy scoring ALL three goals in the water polo IC. If someone is mentioned has "doing nothing" in the challenge, that is not enough to escape an INV unless there is a confessional about it from another player, or there is a fight at camp about it. Scoring only one of many goals is also not enough to escape an INV. Last Edited By: Oowatanite 12/30/08 02:31 PM. Edited 2 times.
fsmdud		#5242	[-]
Posts: 1764 (12/30/08 04:31 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Warrior wrote: S-6 Courtsey of 9RedWing19 S-17 CHART *Player was sent to Exile Island and shown there. Player was sent to Exile Island but not shown there. Im a non-regular Edgicer (did a few episodes of Fiji to the main website). For whatever its worth: 1) Is it time for people to update the Thailand and Amazon charts to reflects INV, MORN, and MORP ratings as well, as well as visibility ratings? 2) My overall season ratings for Gabon (whatever its worth): Michelle: OTTN Gillian: OTTM Paloma: UTRN Jacquie: UTRP GC: MORN Kelly: UTRN Ace: CPN Dan: MOR Marcus: CP Charlie: UTR Randy: CPN Corrine: MORN Crystal: OTTN Ken: CP Matty: MORP Sugar: OTTM Susie: UTR Bob: UTRP Thats some tone, like whoa. Thats gonna be one colorful Edgic chart. And yes, I have do have previous experience doing Edgic, even if I am a bit outta shape.
Phoenix1269		#5243	[-]
Posts: 394 (12/30/08 04:37 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Oowatanite wrote: Phoenix1269 wrote: INV0 - Invisible A character, within the episode, that is edited to be irrelevant or insignificant to any of the stories. In terms of story... they don't have one. The character... had no confessionals or tribal council questions ~~pre-merge; little or no confessionals or tribal council questions in the mid to late episodes.~~ was ignored, lacking even in screen/face time; receives NO SPECIAL FOCUS during group exchanges such as intros and pick-ems was portrayed as irrelevant to the episode or story and / or is lacking in any character development. received NO important or significant SP I agree with those tweaks to the main points. The INV0 causes some problems from a stats point of view... Oowatanite wrote: I think we should start using INV0 to help differentiate it from UTR1. This 0 should be reflected at the voting site as well. This is the part that I'm having technical difficulties with. Not that i disagree with the reasoning behind the suggestion, the problems are both technical and historical First, since the start of S17, the voting site is structured to not allow you to choose anything else when you choose INV (ie you can't choose tone, you can't choose the visibility level) ... so really, it shouldn't matter what the number is... also, i think that this is more of a Visibility Issue than a Ratings Issue and I can't comment on how Warrior calculates the VIS numbers, so that may have to involve some discussion and background from him. Additionally, at the start of S17, I tried to make the website say INV0, but i can't get it to work properly because...and this it the other problem.... it is related to the way all of the calculations are performed. Since all of the historical data, all of the close call processes, full ratings calculations and MOR Diff are calculated using a five point scale (1,2,3,4,5)... 0 doesn't fit in there, it causes all sorts of errors, both on the site itself, and in the calculations spread sheet. (The Tone numbers get adjusted to the 1 to 5 scale before final calculations) Lastly, even if i manage to get everything fixed and working properly, by changing NOW... it would negate all of our past, historical, data. We wouldn't be comparing the info on the same scale anymore. I can try looking at the spread sheet again, but the reality is that this is not as easy to fix as it sounds. I don't mean to poo-poo the suggestion, because in principle i agree... INV should be just that... they had NOTHING. Perhaps the main problem is -- since the website doesn't allow any other choice but the INV -- is it now a case of people not letting go of old habits? Oowatanite wrote: If you have even one confessional or TCQ at any point in the season, you are "saved" from an INV. Did you mean at any point in the episode? because otherwise i am not sure how you mean... I agree with your comments on the definition of "within the episode" I've waffled on the previously on segments, especially when they include new info, but I agree that the the previously on segment is usually fairly clear cut when it ends (ie Probst stops talking), and is usually marked by the first new scene after TC. Everything after that is fair game for ratings. Additionally, i agree with your examples of SPECIAL FOCUS and IMPORTANT OR SIGNIFICANT SPV, these were examples that i had in mind also as these all "build character" even if it isn't from the character's mouth. Random, neutral SPV like"Susie got treemail" isn't helpful and doesn't build the character, but "Bob is the forever boyscout and has totally made camp awesome" is part of the character development. I struggled with the inclusion of challenges, but i decided to include them because, Probst does a lot of editorializing during challenges, and he also does a lot of voice over / studio work for these segments AFTER the show in finished filming. I liked the examples you came up with Oo... i would also include James' Challenge domination in China (the sword challenge) whichever episode he drew the INV for, I've always disagreed with that one. Another good example would be Parv's fat lip. Other players received injuries equal to or far worse than hers (Ami's knee, Alexis' hand) and these were barely mentioned, if at all. Thanks for your feedback!! Hopefully FLF and Warrior and anyone else who was involved with the original MOR Diff set up will be able to comment on / provide direction for the INV issue. eta: spelling mostly and some bolding Last Edited By: Phoenix1269 12/30/08 04:55 PM. Edited 2 times.
guatemala fanfic		#5244	[-]
Posts: 4113 (12/30/08 04:48 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Excellent job, Phoenix and Oowatanite! I really like the way you've re-worked the criteria for the ratings. The character... had no confessionals or tribal council questions ~~pre-merge; little or no confessionals or tribal council questions in the mid to late episodes.~~ This is one change that I was going to suggest. It shouldn't matter whether it's pre-merge or post-merge. Maybe this is just me, but any time someone got a confessional or a TCQ, whether it was Episode 1 or Ep 12, that made them at least UTR1 to me. So I'm glad to see this change made. I think INV1 is fine. It's understood that the person is "invisible" and, as Phoenix said, it's not possible to select anything else, so it's not a major thing.
unduli clone		#5245	[-]
Posts: 3763 (12/30/08 05:03 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	I love those reworkings, Phoenix. Like Oo said, SPV has to be broken down too, though. There's SPV in a list, as part of an alliance, as sitting out of a challenge, and then there's focused SPV. And I'm actually a fan of INV0. It makes so much more sense to me. It also makes INV remain the same whether there's 16 players or 6 players. If a player gets an UTR1 when there's 8 people left it's just as a bad as someone getting an INV1 with 15 people left... but the distinction should be in how we interpret it, not in the actual rating itself.
Phoenix1269		#5246	[-]
Posts: 395 (12/30/08 05:20 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	thanks for the feedback everyone... the changes that i can make (ie, not the INV0 as that is a bigger problem, but the definition changes), I have included in the original post. :) thanks again!
tropical rain		#5247	[-]
Posts: 386 (12/30/08 05:22 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Instead of INV1 or INV0, why not just INV? There is NO visibility in the terms of the defination because the number doesn't exist. Sorry to make things more complicated. XD
Oowatanite		#5248	[-]
Posts: 6670 (12/30/08 05:33 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Phoenix1269 wrote: Oowatanite wrote: If you have even one confessional or TCQ at any point in the season, you are "saved" from an INV. Did you mean at any point in the episode? because otherwise i am not sure how you mean... Actually I worded it badly. I meant one confessional or one TCQ in any episode during the season saves a player from an INV in that episode. Using a vis of 1 for INV in the building of stats like MORD is okay. I just was concerned with edgicers posting their ratings and using INV1 rather than INV or INV0. One of the arguments being used against INV is that it is just like UTR1. Using INV (without the 0) is fine as long as you don't stick a misleading 1 after it in your ratings post. INV >> INV0 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>INV1.
cantthinkofaname		#5249	[-]
Posts: 1280 (12/30/08 05:38 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	fsmdud wrote: Warrior wrote: S-6 Courtsey of 9RedWing19 S-17 CHART *Player was sent to Exile Island and shown there. Player was sent to Exile Island but not shown there. Im a non-regular Edgicer (did a few episodes of Fiji to the main website). For whatever its worth: 1) Is it time for people to update the Thailand and Amazon charts to reflects INV, MORN, and MORP ratings as well, as well as visibility ratings? 2) My overall season ratings for Gabon (whatever its worth): Michelle: OTTN Gillian: OTTM Paloma: UTRN Jacquie: UTRP GC: MORN Kelly: UTRN Ace: CPN Dan: MOR Marcus: CP Charlie: UTR Randy: CPN Corrine: MORN Crystal: OTTN Ken: CP Matty: MORP Sugar: OTTM Susie: UTR Bob: UTRP Thats some tone, like whoa. Thats gonna be one colorful Edgic chart. And yes, I have do have previous experience doing Edgic, even if I am a bit outta shape. I did my own Amazon and Thailand charts if you wanna look at them, in the "edgic charts" thread
Phoenix1269		#5250	[-]
Posts: 396 (12/30/08 05:58 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Remove this ad thanks for clarifying, Oo... that's what i thought you meant!! I understand what you are saying about the INV1... admittedly, i never "got" that, using the 1 on the end. When i took over the stats, it became clear the "WHY"... there was the necessity for the calculations and also the need for data entry on the website. That's why Chap and I fixed the website this time around, so that it would be "clearer" that it's not the same. It's too bad that some of the INV detractors don't vote, perhaps it would be clearer to them if they did. shrug I also never understood why some people think UTR1 is the same as the INV (you and i think alike Tropical Rain!!!) To me, it was pretty obivous they were different, but perhaps that stems from the Visibility Chart only reflecting SPOKEN visibility, not screen time / face time or SPV. For example..in Micronesia, there was an instance where we saw a TONNE of shots of Chet while everyone complained about him, yet his Spoken Vis was really low... but when you actually watched how much was "said without words" his visibility was much higher. I think the main problems with UTR1 vs INV may be addressed now with the flushing out of the INV & UTR guidelines. anyway.... i've updated the main post with all of your excellent suggstions. thanks again. (feel free to take on some of the others too!!!)
BlakeB717		#5251	[-]
Posts: 1286 (12/30/08 06:47 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	I've never seen too much problem with the ratings, I think by now they should be pretty straight forward, the problem is people who tweak them to eliminate/validate players.
BlakeB717		#5252	[-]
Posts: 1288 (12/30/08 07:00 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Alright, since FLF is away....... Time for our favorite (most fight-starting) part of the season :) OVERALL RATINGS! Overall best rating that suits each of the cast members this season, I'll be keeping the tally. Let's get them in quick! If you want to make any changes after you post PLEASE POST THEM IN BOLD RED! Thank you :)
Kitty Pryde1		#5253	[-]
Posts: 7927 (12/30/08 08:10 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Michelle - OTTN Gillian - OTTM Paloma - UTRN Jacquie - UTRP GC - OTTN Kelly - MORN Ace - CPN Dan - MORM Marcus - CP Charlie - MOR Randy - CPN Corinne - MORN Crystal - OTTN Ken - CPN Matty - MORP Sugar - CPP Susie - UTR Bob - MORP
Oowatanite		#5254	[-]
Posts: 6673 (12/30/08 09:04 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Oowatanite wrote: Survivor Gabon Overall Ratings Bob OTTP Susie UTR Sugar OTTP Matty MORP Ken CPN Crystal MORN Corinne MORN Randy OTTN Charlie UTR Marcus CP Dan OTT Ace MORN Kelly UTRN GC OTTN Jacquie UTR Paloma UTRN Gillian OTTM Michelle OTTN
Oowatanite		#5255	[-]
Posts: 6674 (12/30/08 09:07 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	BlakeB717 wrote: I've never seen too much problem with the ratings, I think by now they should be pretty straight forward, the problem is people who tweak them to eliminate/validate players. No Blake, there is a problem with respect to the difference between OTT and CP. Also, when tone and visibility creep into edgicers' thoughts when deciding on CP or OTT (or MOR). It's happened to a lot of edgicers, including myself. TLS and OTH and others have mentioned this as well.
Warrior		#5256	[-]
Posts: 2779 (12/30/08 09:09 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	INV1 vs INV0 Our ratings are all scored on a 5 point system...so we can not change INV1 to INV0. Phoenix, I like your guideline for invisible. Episode 2 (Or episode 1 part 2) opened with a shot of Bob starting a fire...hmmm fire means life... At the IC Bob was featured climbing up on the big ball and retrieving 2 sets of 3 keys. During the episode Bob received multiple SPV's. He did not speak or have a confessional...but he was not invisible. In regards to the Visibility Factor formula: There was a debate regarding awarding a TCQ 5 points. The average response seems to be around 3 sentences. I have been open to the idea of awarding a TCQ only 3 points. But from what we have heard from past contestants TC sometimes lasts 2 to 2 1/2 hours, so it is heavily edited. Reasons not to change the formula: 1) We have been using the same visibility factor formula for 6 seasons. 2) I applied the formula to S-10 and S-11 and visibility numbers were the same as we rated them with no visibility factor. 3) cantthinkofaname went back and applied the formula to S-4, S-5 and S-6 and once again it was "spot on".
Oowatanite		#5257	[-]
Posts: 6675 (12/30/08 09:58 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Warrior wrote: INV1 vs INV0 Our ratings are all scored on a 5 point system...so we can not change INV1 to INV0. Phoenix, I like your guideline for invisible. Episode 2 (Or episode 1 part 2) opened with a shot of Bob starting a fire...hmmm fire means life... At the IC Bob was featured climbing up on the big ball and retrieving 2 sets of 3 keys. During the episode Bob received multiple SPV's. He did not speak or have a confessional...but he was not invisible. In regards to the Visibility Factor formula: There was a debate regarding awarding a TCQ 5 points. The average response seems to be around 3 sentences. I have been open to the idea of awarding a TCQ only 3 points. But from what we have heard from past contestants TC sometimes lasts 2 to 2 1/2 hours, so it is heavily edited. Reasons not to change the formula: 1) We have been using the same visibility factor formula for 6 seasons. 2) I applied the formula to S-10 and S-11 and visibility numbers were the same as we rated them with no visibility factor. 3) cantthinkofaname went back and applied the formula to S-4, S-5 and S-6 and once again it was "spot on". I agree that we keep the 1-5 vis system. It was the use of INV1 as opposed to just INV that I was concerned with. As far as Bob in Episode 2, he escapes INV solely due to the SPV about Bob being part of the Onion alliance, with the SPV from Corinne and Charlie and Jacquie, etc. Without this important SPV, the camera shot of lighting the fire and the key retrieval challenge footage is NOT enough to avoid an INV for Bob. Retrieving keys is a lot different than Kenny overcoming a deficit and beating Bob in the puzzle portion of the IC in Ep3, or Matty beating Bob in the endurance challenge, both of which were extended showdowns. Bob's key retrieval is very similar to Jenn's retrieval of the flag in Palau's opening challenge, or Parvati and Candice being shown to be the ones tied to the mast awaiting rescue in one of the CI challenges.
unduli clone		#5258	[-]
Posts: 3770 (12/30/08 11:18 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Oowatanite wrote: Parvati and Candice being shown to be the ones tied to the mast awaiting rescue in one of the CI challenges. Still the hottest Survivor moment EVAH. And my overall rankings... Michelle - OTTN Gillian - OTTM Paloma - UTR Jacquie - UTR GC - OTTN Kelly - UTRN Ace - MORN Dan - MOR Marcus - CP Charlie - UTR Randy - CPN Corinne - CPN Crystal - OTTN Kenny - CPN Matty - MORP Sugar - OTTP Susie - UTR Bob - UTRP Most of them will probably be pretty obvious, but the ones I feel will be debated most are Ace (he wasn't CP enough overall to warrant a full rating), Dan (OTT + UTR has to compute to MOR, when he wasn't either OTT or UTR enough for either), Randy and Corinne (CPN fits both much better than OTT), and Bob (his overall edit was UTR, not MOR...). Just a thought. XD
chapera rocks		#5259	[-]
Posts: 10090 (12/31/08 01:11 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Michelle - OTTN Gillian - OTTM Paloma - UTRM Jacquie - UTRP GC - OTTN Kelly - UTRN Ace - MORN Dan - MOR Marcus - CP Charlie - UTR Randy - OTTN Corinne - MORN Crystal - MORN Ken - CPN Matty - MORP Sugar - OTTP Susie - UTR Bob - MORP Last Edited By: chapera rocks 12/31/08 04:15 PM. Edited 1 times.
YemaGrl1988		#5260	[-]
Posts: 3533 (12/31/08 01:32 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Remove this ad Michelle - OTTN Gillian - OTTM Paloma - UTRN Jacquie - UTR GC - OTTN Kelly - UTRN Ace - CPN Dan - OTT Marcus - CP Charlie - UTR Randy - CPN Corinne - MORN Crystal - CPN Ken - MORN Matty - MORP Sugar - OTTM Susie - UTR Bob - UTRP Last Edited By: YemaGrl1988 12/31/08 03:46 AM. Edited 1 times.

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S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon