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Coachocd |
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I am wondering if Ace/Sugar and Charlie/Marcus are the two rival alliances post-merge. I think the whole good versus evil thing may show up post-merge and not
between tribes.
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birdlady |
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Ace and Kelly each have a fake surface persona, so that's sorta annoying. (More so to us than to their teamates, who have had time to get used to it, I
think.) But evil, or even mean, no. We haven't even gotten to the normal, non-personal, lying and backstabbing. It will be interesting when Sugar returns,
and original Fang sees how tight she is with Ace.
Or not, if we're going to continue to go with the story that they are ALL dumb. It seems to me that the editing is going out of its way not to show Crystal as individually dumb (other than by definition, as a Fang.) She made the inexplicable pick of Susie at the start of the game, yall seem to think her non-pick of Bob was a bad decision. She's formed an alliance with challenge-weak and, in GC's case, disliked tribemates, and she appears to be the string-puller in boot decisions. Crystal isn't going to win, no matter what she does, but perhaps she would get further if she ditched her Fang allies and went with Sugar and Ace (and surfer dude, who allies with anyone who asks him, apparently). Perhaps she does take a long critical look at Ken and GC. (Especially GC, if he gets "frustrated" again and quits in the middle of a challenge.)
Last Edited By: birdlady
10/11/08 8:01 AM.
Edited 1 times.
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Jedijake |
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O_o It's just you. I find him arrogant and let's not forget fake.How is Ace arrogant? Sure he talks with an accent, but that doesn't make him arrogant. |
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Will |
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Just listen to the way he speaks.
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taigark |
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Jedijake wrote: In one interview, he actually called himself arrogant. Plus, in the 2 challenges (both of which he lost), he kept showing-off and fake-yawning. |
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Roadfinder |
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Jeff Probst's blog for Episode 4:
At this rate, Jeff is going to put MESS HALL out of business. LOL (I bolded some words I considered important. The caps are Jeff's.) Ah...unscripted reality. You just can't write this stuff. I think the idea of having them rank themselves in order of importance was one of more inspired "switch" ideas of late. You can thank Dan Munday for that one. Been with our show since season two and he's brilliant. They simply didn't see the switch coming and as you know that pleases me to no end when we pull one over on them. |
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Coachocd |
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As always happens, the swap/twist usually rescues some players (Gina-S4) and dooms others (Aaron-S15).
New KOTA: Even with the new lineup, Kota is the physically stronger tribe on paper, and it looks that way in practice. The
men dominate. Lucky Charlie. The real drama here is who will be the next Onion? Maybe they can have a reality show like "who will be the next pussycat
doll?"
BOB: Probst said in his blog that people aren't paying attention to Bob. Well, that may be a clue that Bob goes as far
as Paschal or Rudy. However, I don't think it could be said that people weren't paying attention since he was ranked third on old Kota. His risk is
always that he could be seen as the weakest member of the tribe and just booted. However, I expect an old Fang would go before that happens. Probst seems to
imply that Bob outwits someone later.
Dumbest move: What blew me away was the fact that Bob was picked so late in the process. Somebody is gonna pay for that one. Trust me, had you been standing in my shoes you would have been just as shocked. Bob is a worker and a competitor. To leave him up there that long tells me these guys are vulnerable for a smart player to wreak havoc on this game. That was a mistake. They're under estimating him and that means they're not paying attention. CHARLIE: Charlie is lucky. He doesn't just get to hero worship Marcus. He has his core alliance partner on the same
tribe. He's safe.
CORRINE: Well, she was only ranked sixth, but she's still a good schemer and plotter. She was actually smart to pick
Susie for the tribe over Bob, because she didn't want to be the only woman on the tribe. This is similar to Caryn's one (and only) smart move in S10
where she picked Willard over athletic Jonathon so that she wouldn't be the oldest and first target on the tribe. She's safe for the foreseeable
furture, unless then men switch around and have just a men's alliance. Her biggest concern will be who to bring in as the fourth onion.
DAN: Dan is lucky that he is not the weakest old Fang on the tribe. He probably has a pass unless Kota feels they can expel
one of the strong threats pre-merge. But I think he's safe at least through the next Kota TC.
MARCUS: Well, he was ranked number 1, but that does put a target on his back. However, Charlie isn't going to vote to
take him out. Corrine isn't going to vote to take him out. I don't think Bob will join with Old Fang to do that either. He's certainly safe till
the merge.
RANDY: Well, Marcus said that it was up to Randy to prove himself in the challenges, so he did. This means he doesn't go before Susie. The swap worked out well for him. Here's what Corrine had to say on Insider: "I think Randy's great. I think Randy is the biggest surprise to me so far in the game. He is really witty and funny and I totally love that. He just says what's on his mind, which I respect. He's a worker. He's definitely got skills we don't have whereas fishing and some other things we can really use. I'm very happy to have that."So does Corrine lobby for Randy to get the 4th slot over Bob? SUSIE: Sorry, no Sandra here. She is the next one out of NuKota (assuming they have a pre-merge TC). She is doing the right
thing by working hard. The cook is often beloved. She should take a clue from MamaKim and become the maternal figure of the tribe. I'm not being sexist
here. I'm just seeing a realistic way for her to survive when she is obviously the weakest Kota in challenges. She has to like Mad Dog become emotionally
indespensible so that the tribe is willing to boot an athletic person instead of her.
New FANG: Even after the swap, they're still losers. Most performed abominably in the challenge. Why didn't they copy what Ace was doing? Why did they leave themselves without a goalie? I still think they are basically losing most of the ICs before the merge. Favorite move: Ace ended up on one of the worst tribes ever - Fang. It's perfect. I can't wait to hear him wax on about all the problems on this tribe.It sounds like Fang will continue to suck. ACE: Well, his athleticism made him indispensable for now. The merge was not helpful to him, but it would have been far worse without Sugar. There is a silver lining for him. On old Kota he seemed to have an overestimation of his standing on the tribe. He has no such illusions now. I just hope for him that he doesn't overthink the idol and outwit himself. His phony, inconsistent accent is growing on me. Watch at the end of the season in the interview, we'll hear him speak in a pure southern drawl or Brooklynese and laugh at how he created a whole new character for the game (which incidentally is how Probst said he would play the game if he were on it.). CRYSTAL: She's athletic, which is showing now, and indispensible too. She's got to watch not taking things personally like being ranked fourth. Focus only on winning, not on your feelings. She seems to be smart too. Everyone on that tribe should see her as a threat, but they don't.G.C.: I think he's the Sarah-S4 of the bunch, someone who is completely clueless about the game and events around him. I
don't think he's long in the game. This episode set up how he doesn't want to ration food and how he gives up in challenges. Gone within the next
2 Fang TCs.
KELLY: I think she's smart. Like ShiiAnn, she knows where she stands and flipping is a good idea for her. However, this isn't post-merge. This is pre-merge and her bad attitude and poor challenge performance puts her on thin ice. However, with drama surrounding the immunity idol coming up next, she's probably safe for another TC (unless Sugar writes her name down). Oh my God, this is so Earth's Eden. I really hope that doesn't mean she's in for the long haul. But hey, if she finds a way, good on her.
KEN: Well, he's a socially indept dork. Not that there's anything wrong with that. He's book smart, but he's not street smart. He may sort of stumble along for awhile, but if Fang really starts losing, he's the weakest man and would be in jeopardy then. My hunch is he somehow goes pre-jury and joins Michelle on loser tour. That said, JP seems to indicate on his blog that Kenny may do better than I expect: Best move: Kenny choosing Kelly. Kenny is playing to WIN. He's taking chances. Kelly seemed like a ridiculous choice and Kenny played it as such saying he chose her because "she's hot." Lie. He chose her because he sensed a lost puppy in need of a home and he believed he could use her vote to further his own game. MATTY: JP says on his blog that Matty is too honest.
Matty is vulnerable. He plays this game too honestly to have much of a shot at winning. This is probably how he gets screwed in the game. Maybe he pulls an "Alex-S6" and tells someone where they are in
the pecking order and he gets booted instead. He either gets booted just before the merge or is a very early juror. He's a nice guy and that is very
commendable in life, but as Rob C. would say, "it makes him a really bad survivor player".
------------------------- JACQUIE: Well, I guess it is good to know we can still have surprise bootees 17 seasons down the road. Jacquie was basically screwed by the merge. It wasn't impossible for her and she played her heart out until the end, but NewFang was just too scared of the hidden idol. I actually don't like the hidden idol. I think it is now too important and has too big an impact on the game. But, it is part of the game and therefore every player needs to strategize for it. ------------------ Did Crystal/GC/Ken/Matty make the right choice between Kelly and Jacquie? Sometimes there are no "good" choices, only figuring out which one is less bad. NewFang didn't know about the "onion alliance", so they get no points for proactively eliminating someone from that alliance. However, going with the information they had, they made a arguably good choice. If they believed, and probably obviously so, that Sugar wouldn't ever give the idol to Kelly, but might give the idol to Jacquie, that's a good move, so as not to give Ace/Sugar/Jacquie too much power on their tribe. Also, Kelly is looking to be a loyal member of the core Fang alliance. On the other hand, the weaker the tribe in the challenges (and around camp), the more chances one can be voted out at tribal council period. Having Kelly around may mean more trips to TC. Do you choose having a weaker tribe or a weaker minority on the tribe with a weaker influence of the idol? Like I said, sometimes there are only "less bad" choices, not "good" ones. From her final words: "I just hope everyone goes far, the real, genuine, really cool people in this game I think are Charlie, Marcus, Ace, and Sugar, so I hope they go really far. I'll be waiting for when they get kicked off."Interesting how Jacquie doesn't mention Corrine. So they were alliance mates by association not friendship. In truth, the Tagi 4 had the right idea. You want someone reliable you can "do business" with more than you want a "friendship" or "showmance" that keeps you from objectively treating other people like tissue and discarding them when you are done with them. ---------------------- Next episode predicton: GC falls apart. He's hungry, homesick, sucks in the challenge and the Fang tribe is torn whether or not to flush out the idol or flush out GC. They may try to do both by asking Sugar to vote for GC while they all vote for her. Of course, who then will Sugar actually vote for? Matty? Crystal? Ken? or Kelly? My guess is that somehow Sugar and Ace survive to the next episode because I think the title of Episode 6 is Sugar talking about Ace.
Last Edited By: Coachocd
10/11/08 10:15 PM.
Edited 1 times.
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Coachocd |
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If so we can look forward to more dumb play: "By the time this season is over, you can make the case that maybe this is the dumbest team when it comes to idol play."I have a different spin on this here. In the Probst blog he mentions that Matty is too honest to win. I think the dumb move could be that Matty tips off Sugar or Ace that they know she has the idol. |
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birdlady |
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Even after the swap, they're still losers. Most performed abominably in the challenge. Why didn't they copy what Ace was doing? Why did they leave themselves without a goalie? ...I was asking myself the opposite question - Why didn't Ace explain about how to move the boat? Why didn't someone raised in soccer-playing countries explain about goalies? We've seen Ace teaching people about water from vines and how to find ginger, and of course leading yoga workouts. This week, we saw Marcus, who obviously has some lacrosse experience, leading ball-handling practice (which, either Randy also has a lacrosse background or he caught on darn quick - he was changing direction on the passes with a lot of control). Matty supposed works as a trainer, Crystal has certainly received lots of coaching in her life - certainly those two should have been able to benefit from Ace's experience. The story, of course, is that Fang are dumb, so that's what we saw. But I would be curious to know what really happened. Did Ace suggest practice and everyone ignored him? Between rounds in the challenge, was he demonstrating boating techniques and everyone else was blowing him off? Or, was did he make a choice to generally lay low and not draw attention to himself, even positive attention? Or, while he wouldn't work single-handed to throw the challenge, was he just as happy that they lost? He's not going to get booted either way, he'd love to see Kelly gone, and then he gets Sugar back. G.C.: I think he's the Sarah-S4 of the bunch, someone who is completely clueless about the game and events around him. I don't think he's long in the game. This episode set up how he doesn't want to ration food and how he gives up in challenges.Especially after this last episode, I think there is another GC story which could have been told. But again, the storyline that was decided on was that he is dumb and lazy. But he's the one who brings up Sugar maybe having the idol. He's the one who noted that Dan/Matty/Randy/Susie all of a sudden going off to talk together wasn't good for the remaining three allies. From what we saw, he was trying to make the boot decision rationally, not based on hotness or heartstrings. So it seems like he does have some clues about the game, but as a younger person, with more limited life experience, he doesn't know how to apply that knowledge to his own game actions. Another story we're barely getting (mostly on the web) is how he is taking advantage of being in African wilderness. Supposedly he is in the habit of going off and exploring. We've seen him explain about eating bugs, to know-most-all Ace no less. In the first episode he was being intentional, if inept, about applying what they learned in their pre-game classes. He's apparently a total city boy, yet he's not afraid to explore and experiment. Again, not helping him or his tribe in the game, but does suggest he has some capacity for and interest in learning. |
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jessiiiek |
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The story, of course, is that Fang are dumb, so that's what we saw.They're dumb, to be sure, but "dumb" manifests itself in different ways in different types of dysfunctional tribes. With Fang, it's their inability to look beyond individual wants/needs to the greater good of the group. They refuse to "see" what Randy spells out for them... eat three meals a day for 23 days and then nothing for the rest of the time, OR eat one meal a day until the end. They refuse to accept what Jeff spells out for them... they need a leader. They seem to misunderstand that a leader is not a "boss" that directs subordinates what to do, but rather, a leader "leads" in helping the "team" to work together for a common goal that benefits all. You've got, presumably, some young, strong people like GC and Michelle, sitting their asses on the top of the hill, who did virtually nothing the entire time to help their tribe. Matty and Dan seemed to have been the only team players. Yet they wouldn't/couldn't/didn't lead. Matty lost his alliance, and now his position is precarious in a group of misfits, where he must go to them and ask them who to vote out. He recognized Jacquie's strength, and how she would be helpful in helping the tribe to win challenges, yet, it was because of her strength, and likeability, that she wasn't to be kept... she wouldn't be good for the longevity of the weaker ones. How ironic is that? Their tribe is just that awful, that a pleasant, strong player is not good for their game! Ace, who was allowed to "lead" on Kota (though, he wasn't really in control, they were "smart" enough to let him think that he was), comes to Fang, and isn't shown to be trying to lead. True, that he was in a minority, but a true leader would have tried something. Kelly, unlike Paloma, WAS in the yoga sessions at Kota. Did he try doing that with the tribe, as a bonding time? He isn't shown to be looked up and copied while he's doing something that works. BTW, Ace started out in goal, but when he saw that nobody else could move in the boats, he figured out a way to move, and did what he could to be the only actual player on his team. To be fair, I'm sure the boats were very difficult to move. It wasn't just Kelly and Crystal who sat there and did nothing. I didn't see Charlie, Susie, Corinne, Bob, or many others moving. But, because Marcus so masterfully maneuvered his way around, it didn't matter that the rest of the tribe didn't have it figured out. You should notice Randy being happy as a lark at his new tribe. Despite his outspokeness for his hatred of mankid, he understands that survival, out there, means thinking ahead beyond the moment, and beyond what you want as an individual. His confessionals are nasty, maybe too honest? But, I don't think he is coming across that way to his tribe. He should probably step up his work ethic even more on Kota, since he is competing against Bob and Marcus, as opposed to GC and Kenny, who like their rest time. Note, it was Crystal who was the one surprised at her "low" ranking on the tribe. She thought she deserved higher than 4th out of 7? The ONLY thing I've seen her do, is rip Paloma (who is the weight of one of Crystal's legs) off a post and toss her a few feet, with the help, I might add the largest male out there, Randy. Oh, and she also did well in the relay race. Have we seen her so much as boil water, collect firewood? Does she contribute to the morale of her tribe? She picked Susie, for crying out loud, and then didn't even bond with her. She seems to have something against men with testosterone. If she was on Kota, she would have been ranked much lower than 4th! Unfortunately, the first half of this season, will be about the dysfunction of Fang. Hopefully, it will start to focus on good "players" after the merge. |
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crocophile |
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Next episode predicton: GC falls apart. He's hungry, homesick, sucks in the challenge and the Fang tribe is torn whether or not to flush out the idol or flush out GC. They may try to do both by asking Sugar to vote for GC while they all vote for her. Of course, who then will Sugar actually vote for? Matty? Crystal? Ken? or Kelly? My guess is that somehow Sugar and Ace survive to the next episode because I think the title of Episode 6 is Sugar talking about Ace. I agree on much of the above coach. If Fang loses IC I don't know how both Ace and Sugar survive at least with the HI in tact, but with the Fang anything is possible. TT3 should try to solidify the relationship with Kelly and try to bring Matty in. Are they dysfunctional enough to give up just when they are on the cusp of forming a block of 4 or 5? Surely they can't be dumb enough to actually vote out GC... Could he just quit, another Shawna? My guess is unless GC just walks out Crystal darned well makes him stay - or else! Ace and Sugar should go after GC just because he's weak and they may actually pick up Matty and/or Kelly vote(s) even if TT3 wants him to stay. Next ep title could easily refer to Marcus and Charlie.
Last Edited By: crocophile
10/13/08 5:19 AM.
Edited 1 times.
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jessiiiek |
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I think the dumb move could be that Matty tips off Sugar or Ace that they know she has the idol.That wouldn't be that dumb. It's not as if Matty likes the misfits that he voted with last episode. If can give a heads up to the Ace/Sugar team, she will play it, be safe, and live to repay Matty with their loyalty, possibly. They are a two-strong vote and he needs someone on hi side. Matty must make it to the merge to reunite with Dan, Randy, etc. in order to have any chance at all. Right now, he has nobody. |
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birdlady |
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Yeah, at this point that things like voting out Jacque and selling out either alliance make good game sense. The interesting thing/problem with a switch is
that it sows distrust. If you did the ranking and then went back to camp, potentially everyone could learn something and alter tribe dynamics.
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Coachocd |
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crocophile wrote:Just throwing this out here. What if GC tips Sugar off himself and asks Sugar to play the idol and vote him off? If "homesickness" is an issue. Just throwing out the possibilities. If Matty is "too honest", according to Probst, he could piss off Crystal/Ken who may not be so happy with Matty that he either deliberately or accidentally tipped off Ace or Sugar. If there is mistakes due to idol play, my guess it is played, flushed out, or misplayed multiple times. |
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Kirblar |
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Coachocd wrote:"Too Honest" could be a Christy-Dolly style indecisiveness boot. |
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Coachocd |
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Jedijake wrote: It depends on how you define "wrong". Does he have a tragic flaw? Probably, like every other player. I think his arrogance could be his undoing, but we don't know yet. He's very confident and there is nothing wrong with that by itself. It is how it plays out when it comes to voting. We've had arrogant people win and arrogant people lose. Right now his athleticism makes safe. However, Probst stated, "Not sure I'd trust Ace. Check that, I'm sure I wouldn't trust Ace. I don't think Ace trusts Ace." It is possible that Ace outwits himself at some point in the game. I haven't seen any sign that Ace is a sure loser. We know an alliance is formed without him, but who knows what happens as the game progresses. I still find an Ace vs. Marcus contest an intriguing idea of good vs. evil whether that actually happens or not. |
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Orangeena |
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So, I'm getting that Ace is then the perfect F2 Goat? The editing certainly makes him look like a major player in this game. His flaw....Sugar....
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Kirblar |
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Orangeena wrote:He's been portrayed as a guy who thinks he's in charge but yet has no actual power. (With the onions actually being in control.) Sugar's flaw has been shown to be her relationship with Ace. |
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ijustwannalickcolby |
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Ace is Satan. Sugar is Eve. She ate the apple figuratively and literally last episode. Marcus is Adam (and Charlie is Steve, lol). After the merge, they will
tempt Marcus to eat the apple too and he will have a second alliance with Ace/Sugar and take Ace to the F2 as his goat over Charlie and the rest of the Onions.
Marcus still wins because, even though he pissed the Onions off, everybody hates Ace more and Charlie lurvs Marcus.
Corinne will be the last woman standing because she picked Susie for her team because she didn't want to be the only girl. She'll probably make final four with Marcus, Charlie, and Ace. Bob, Sugar, and Randy will round out the final 7 and be part of the Kota alliance, with Randy staying loyal to NuKota, that Pagongs whoever's left from Fang after the merge. Matty, Dan, and Crystal will be the first three post-merge boots, depending on who wins immunity. If there's an early merge, then it's possible that Kenny and/or Susie may make it, but I don't see NuKota losing anybody else pre-merge other than Susie, and Kelly and GC have pre-merge boot written all over them. |
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Psprecinctprez |
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Crystal isn't going to win, no matter what she does, but perhaps she would get further if she ditched her Fang allies and went with Sugar and Ace (and surfer dude, who allies with anyone who asks him, apparently). Perhaps she does take a long critical look at Ken and GC. (Especially GC, if he gets "frustrated" again and quits in the middle of a challenge.)I think this is possible. They have shown her as being competitive (remember how often they reminded us of her being an Olympic athlete). At Fang's first Tribal Council, she was shown agreeing with Michelle that you don't give up until you win (though GC and Ken were blamed for not putting their all into it). In the challenge that Crystal was the so called MVP, GC was shown not trying too hard to get the other person off the pole. The last episode, GC blamed Ken for not being able to move much at all in the challenge. So to some degree, I can see her getting annoyed with her alliance of weaklings. Still, she certainly does have a sense of entitlement. Aside from being large and helping them win that one reward, I don't see why she would put herself on a pedastal over the others. |
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