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Screerider |
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Of course, going by the above definition of mutilation, child birth is female genital mutilation too. Man, does it radically alter that shit up or what?
Jes' sayin'.
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HoodooRhythmDevil |
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Not really. Generally, the woman involved in giving birth is a willing participant.
It's the mutilation that she and the kid will do to the man that's mutilation... |
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yukugajoob |
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Chaperone,
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2manypixiestix |
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Been with both, and it really doesn't matter...
however..... you can play more games when it's not cut. Like "Turtle Turtle Come Out and Play", "Meerkat Poke Your Head Out, Danger's a Comin'", and the old standard, "What Time Is It Mr Wolf Eel?" My hubby isn't and neither is our son. Never had any problems at all. |
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thriving sobi |
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Performing Circumcision does not pay well.
But you get to keep the tips. |
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chaperone |
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yukugajoob wrote: Hey yuku (and others for that matter, there was a nice reasonable anecdote for anecdote argument on previous page which is quite valid) thanks for the
thoughtful response. I don't take it as combative at all.
I totally understand your point, and my only intention in bringing the religious line of logic was not so much to suggest that it "allows" it but
that it at one time "allowed it" as a method of suggesting that the act of male circumcision has a precedent that has little if any long term
psychological costs. In a similar vein, I wouldn't bag on someone who continued to follow kosher food laws, etc. You could make arguments about the bible
and slavery and the bible and women and so forth, as you mentioned, that get real sticky, but that are not unfair to bring into this discussion, even though
every comparison falls short (just by the universal nature of analogies and comparisons...we're attempting to construct equivalence in order to shed light
on any matter at hand) they're still good to consider.
Seriously all, even the dude who thinks I'm dumb, I appreciate your viewpoints.
Last Edited By: chaperone
08/07/08 12:53 AM.
Edited 1 times.
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chaperone |
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SIDEBAR: I've often imagined that the kosher food laws and regulations for ceremonial cleanliness in the Hebrew Bible (Christian Old Testament) may very
well have represented food safety health and sanitation needs that were beyond the medical understanding of the day. In a sense...God might've been
protecting against the spread of infectious diseases, food and water borne illness, etc.
Circumcision could be seen in a similar light where there was a legit need before cleaning techniques were deeply understood to protect people. I eat pork because I know that it has to be cooked in certain ways and our government makes sure it gets cooked as such (in food establishments). Similarly, one could argue that circumcision is no longer required for religious purposes (as stated unequivocally in New Testament language) nor for cleaning purposes. Thinking out loud...I know religion and OT don't go together all that well, but I just can't separate. It's who I am. I gotta be me. Ya know? Peace, Chap |
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ml66uk2 |
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Funny how Christians didn't circumcise for the best part of two millennia, and yet because of some seriously bad *medical* opinions in the late 19th
century, some Christians are looking for reasons to do it today. 95% of Christians worldwide do *not* circumcise, and the Catholic church has been opposed for
centuries:
The Holy Roman Church "...commands all who glory in the name of Christian, at whatever time, before or after baptism, to cease entirely from circumcision, since, whether or not one places hope in it, it cannot be observed at all without the loss of eternal salvation." From Cantate Domino, re-affirmed by Pope Pius XII in 1952. "From a moral point of view, circumcision is permissible if, in accordance with therapeutic principles, it prevents a disease that cannot be countered in any other way." Pope Pius XII in 1952. The form of circumcision undergone by Christ was nothing like a modern day circumcision anyway. He would have looked more like an intact man than like someone who has had a typical American circumcision. The most common form of circumcision today was only introduced by rabbis (not Christians) over a century after the crucifixion. There's no way it's a 30 second operation. If your OB said that, she's not neutral. Check out a video on the web. Having it done straight after birth is the worst time to do it too - it just sounds like she wants the few hundred bucks rather than some pediatrician. drops in male circumcision: USA: from 90% to 57% Canada: from 47% to 14% UK: from 35% to about 3% (less than 1% among non-Muslims) Australia: 90% to 12.6% ("routine" circumcision has recently been *banned* in public hospitals in all states except one, so the rate will now be a lot lower) New Zealand: 95% to below 3% (mostly Samoans and Tongans) South America and Europe: never above 5% (includes many of the world's most Christian countries eg Spain, Italy, Poland, Mexico, Ireland, Brazil etc) You might also want to check out the following: Canadian Paediatric Society http://www.cps.ca/english/statements/fn/fn96-01.htm "Recommendation: Circumcision of newborns should not be routinely performed." http://www.caringforkids.cps.ca/babies/Circumcision.htm "Circumcision is a non-therapeutic" procedure, which means it is not medically necessary. Parents who decide to circumcise their newborns often do so for religious, social or cultural reasons. To help make the decision about circumcision, parents should have information about risks and benefits. It is helpful to speak with your baby's doctor. After reviewing the scientific evidence for and against circumcision, the CPS does not recommend routine circumcision for newborn boys. Many paediatricians no longer perform circumcisions." Royal Australasian College of Physicians http://www.racp.edu.au/download.cfm?DownloadFile=A453CFA1-2A57-5487-DF36DF59A1BAF527 "After extensive review of the literature the Royal Australasian College of Physicians reaffirms that there is no medical indication for routine neonatal circumcision." (those last nine words are in bold on their website, and almost all the men responsible for this statement will be circumcised themselves, as the male circumcision in Australia in 1950 was about 90%. "Routine" circumcision is now *banned* in public hospitals in Australia in all states except one.) British Medical Association http://www.bma.org.uk/ap.nsf/Content/malecircumcision2006?OpenDocument&Highlight=2,circumcision#Circumcisionformedicalpurposes "to circumcise for therapeutic reasons where medical research has shown other techniques to be at least as effective and less invasive would be unethical and inappropriate." National Health Service (UK) http://www.nhsdirect.nhs.uk/articles/article.aspx?articleId=649 "Many people have strong views about whether circumcision should be carried out or not. It is not routinely performed in the UK because there is no clear clinical evidence to suggest that it is has any medical benefit." Canadian Children's Rights Council http://www.canadiancrc.com/Circumcision_Genital_Mutilation_Male-Female_Children.aspx "It is the position of the Canadian Children's Rights Council that "circumcision" of male or female children is genital mutilation of children. ... The Canadian Children's Rights Council position is that there is no medical benefit to the routine genital mutilation (circumcision) of any children (defined by U.N. as those under 18 years of age). Further, all Canadian children, both male and female, should be protected by the criminal laws of Canada with regards to this aggravated assault. Currently, the protection provided by the Criminal Code of Canada includes only genital mutilation (circumcision) of female children." |
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Screerider |
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HoodooRhythmDevil wrote: Hey, nothing in your definition referred to willingness. "Mutliate: to cut up or alter radically so as to make imperfect (not in its original form)". Call it what you want, but going by that, childbirth is genital mutilation. It's the mutilation that she and the kid will do to the man that's mutilation...Preach it. |
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HoodooRhythmDevil |
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Screerider wrote: Touche. Childbirth is, in fact, genital mutliation.
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Screerider |
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See? "Genital mutilation" ain't so bad.
Folks seem to get hung up on the whole "genital mutilation" tag, and I find it a bit dishonest, sorta like folks saying pro-choicers are "pro-abortion", or folks against the war are "unpatriotic". Rhetoric to, I suppose, "help" one's side in an argument, by causing a knee-jerk reaction. "Mutilate my baby? OMG! No way!" "Circumsize 'em? Sure!" Whichever. At least folks still have a choice. |
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HoodooRhythmDevil |
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Screerider wrote: So calling it "aconsensual intercourse" makes it better than "rape?" |
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Screerider |
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Yeah. "Rape" is just such a charged term.
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TexasBlues |
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I don't understand why anyone would have an unnecessary medical procedure performed on their child - even if the risks are considered low, they're
still there. Plus, you are making a decision that will impact your son for the rest of his life - if you have any doubts at all, shouldn't you not do it?
The increased risk of infection thing is b.s. anyway - teach the kid how to clean his penis properly and the problem is solved.
I would think that the idea that there is a loss of sensation involved would make any man not want to do that to his son. |
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HoodooRhythmDevil |
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TexasBlues "gets" it...
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TexasBlues |
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Plus, Pixis is right - there a definitely some fun games you can play with an uncut penis. Well, a cut penis, too, but I digress.
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Screerider |
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I can't get my kid to wash his hands before/after a meal.
I'm just glad I got the benefits of circumcism, including the alleged loss in sensation. Wouldn't change a thing. |
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TexasBlues |
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Hands aren't as much fun to wash as penii, are they? I'm sure that boy children spend more time washing certain parts of their bodies than others,
don't they?
I would imagine that if there were really health benefits to circumcision that it would have caught on in the rest of the developed world at some point. I'm not saying that adult males who have already been circumsized should be upset about it, I just wouldn't think that it would be worth the risks for no appreciable benefit to continue the practice on male babies. |
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Screerider |
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It's catching on in the undeveloped world first. They had to stop that HIV study, because the benefits were so notable, they felt they were being unethical
to the control group.
And, yeah, my boy tugs on his penis, but perhaps that's BECAUSE it's circumcized. It's just so out there. |
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TexasBlues |
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I can see the reason for it in places with an AIDS epidemic because the benefits are clear there - it's the practice as is exists in the U.S. that I find
questionable.
lol on your second point, but I'll bet he would tug on it just as much if it were uncirumsized. Boys never seem to have a hard time finding the penis. |
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