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ColonelBird |
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I agree with you Astroline. Overall, Natalie comes across as majorly OTTN. And Chet is a sure UTRN. I often think edgic is good for determining a winner,
but is not a good indicator for overall tone.
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GretchenIsMyGod |
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good thing overall tone isn't edgic then, eh? and just determining a winner, instead.
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craig |
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Lydia S11 was an UTR\OTT mix and ended up UTR. Both her and Natalie were ruled out for their many UTR\INV episodes.
Plus Natalie was only OTT once, she ended with MOR and CP. Her OTTN was confined to one episode, and even there it was purely a matter of words said in confessionals. It wasn't like she got drunk and yelled at someone at TC |
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MyChemicalShowmance |
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I am glad that people have finally started to address the retardedness of some of the recent overall Edgic season ratings of certain players (most notably
post-Guatemala).
Courtney: adjust from MORN to MOR Shane: adjust from OTTN to OTT Terry: adjust from CPP to MORP COOK ISLANDS Sekou: adjust from OTT to OTTN CaoBoi: adjust from OTT to CP Jenny: adjust from UTRN to UTR FIJI is actually quite solid CHINA Chicken: adjust from OTT to OTTN
And don't give me this crap of "oh, but what was the OVERALL impression of their edit." Bullshit. This is supposed to be a summation/average
of their entire season long edit. Obviously a player lasting 13 episodes does not need more than 6 or 7 episodes of CP to garner an overall CP rating (no one
gets airtime ALL the time, except for maybe Rupert, Steph, Richard Hatch, Earl, etc...). I know how this shit works. But to throw down a season rating of N
when a player had say... 8 neutral episodes and 1 N episode is retarded... or if they are only in 1 episode (1st boot), their season rating should match their
rating for that episode. Duh.
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Wc3Fanatic |
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Lol @ your last line. Most edgicians have DEFINED the final rating to be the 'overall impression' and not the 'simple math' that you speak of
with averages. Go argue with the edgic dictionary.
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MyChemicalShowmance |
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Wc3Fanatic wrote: Lollerz @ you avoiding some of the bullets. If Chicken was in one episode, and was OTTN, how the hell does he get OTT(M) for the season?... don't even
get me started on that M bullshit either...
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chapera rocks |
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I agree with you on the first boots. That never made sense to me. Either the overall rating should be changed, or the episode 1 rating should be changed.
But some of your other suggestions make no sense to me. Courtney, Shane, and Jenny were definitely negative. CB was definitely OTT. |
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MyChemicalShowmance |
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chapera rocks wrote:Here's my point though: Cao Boi was in the game for 6 episodes and 4 of them were CP (neut or "mixed"), while only ONE was OTT at all (and it was OTTN). How the hell does that come out as OTT? (Now if it was 4 episodes of CP and TWO of OTT, or 3 of CP and TWO of OTT and the 6th was some other rating, then you may have a case for OTT... maybe. But not here...) Makes no sense. Why even bother with ratings on an episode-by-episode basis if they play no role in the overall ratings, and are only used to assess winner chances? |
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scepticA |
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My Chemical Showmance (and damn! I love their Black Parade album) - FYI the Overall Edgic Rating isn't really part of edgic. It's a fun thing to do to fill the void in our sad, pathetic little lives between seasons of Survivor. Edgic's point is to use the logic of editing, episode-by-episode, to identify the winner. There is no way that any compilation of all episode edits, no matter how performed, can help in this process. So your complaint about the lack of logic in assigning (as an example) an OTT to Bruce is understandable. at least from a certain perspective. But it's
utterly irrelevant to edgic regardless of which side you come down on in the great "What does Overall Rating Mean" kerfluffle.
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Green Coffee |
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I just felt like chiming in and saying that I still don't see how you can logically have a first boot with overall ratings and episode ratings that do not
match. If that was the only episode they were in, their overall edit should be entirely contained within that episode. For what reason should their overall
impression rating differ from the impression they put off in the ONLY EPISODE they were in?
The problem is that individual episode ratings are done on the fly, while the overall rating is done at the end. You remember the first boot's edit clearly when you originally rate it, but by the end of the season, you forget some things, embellish some things, etc. Memory is distorted. To be fair, the casual viewer is likely to suffer from the same distortion of perception. HOWEVER, why is "the end of the season" the universal measuring point for "overall season impressions?" If you were to take a measure of overall impressions for the season right after episode 1, they should each match up perfectly. If you wait until the end of the season, you obviously (as we can see) can get something different. Now, say you wait until the start of next season to do overall rankings for this season. They would likely be even more different. Do overall rankings for Season 1 today, without rewatching, and you are likely to remember only the most vivid caricatures of impression. Your memory for the original intricacies of the edit has changed, because thats exactly how memory works. If you want overall impressions to be as accurate as possible, you should do overall ratings for each player after each episode and look for changes in trends over time. Also, because we're dealing with malleable memories, here, you should make it a sort of "secret ballot" so that others aren't influenced by the behaviors of others (Well everyone else seems to remember CPN so I guess that's right). That said, if you don't change your methods, at least follow common sense and force first boots to have matching ratings. In that case, it is clear that differences are due to changes in memory for events or impressions, because there is no additional footage or edit to explain the difference. |
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cantthinkofaname |
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Lollerz @ you avoiding some of the bullets. If Chicken was in one episode, and was OTTN, how the hell does he get OTT(M) for the season?... don't even get me started on that M bullshit either...Chicken's episode 1 rating was OTTM up until a little while ago (I don't know who changed it and why) And Sekou's rating for episode 1 was a close call between OTTM and OTTN, but that was only because someone voted OTTP (I'd imagine they'd vote OTTM if they had to vote for one of the other 2, that would've given OTTM enough to avoid a close call). About Jenny, I have her as N overall, but I gave her Ns in 4 episodes. |
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fat little fingers |
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scepticA: I agree with scep's post, but would have said, "... It's essentially: So, whad'ya think was the edit intent of player X this episode?" flf beats a dead horse on why "overall ratings" have no Edgic value: "Summed up" characters remove any when-where-why from the ratings. A winner who is UTR through most of the first half will have a bump in complexity after the merge. Do they get an overall rating of UTR? Maybe. But if they have a string of CP-MOR eps after the merge, maybe an overall impression is MOR. Signifying..... what? Tone ratings mean little without the specific context of the scene or scenes that created it. Nearly all winners have had a mix of positive and negative episodes. Some early-Survivor winners may have avoided negative episodes (Tina, Ethan, Vecepia), but usually we look for some negative edit in a winner. Too positive a player can lean dangerously toward a lack of complexity (Such as, Yau-Man/Fiji, Exile Isand's Terry). We were relieved when Tom got his one, obligatory N ep near the end of Palau. Tone "impressions" are the basis for most "overall ratings". "So-and-so only got a couple of N ratings this season, but my impression, overall, was she was a negative bitch." Parvati has gotten 9 CPN votes for overall rating, according to Blake's p.268 chart. But her official Edgic chart has only 2 Ns in eps 8 and 10. Cirie received zero Ns for her overall rating, even though she officially had the same number of Ns and Ps as Parvati. All this tells me is that the majority of Edgic participants liked Cirie's character more than Parvati's character this season.
Last Edited By: fat little fingers
06/07/08 10:15 PM.
Edited 1 times.
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Wc3Fanatic |
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MyChemicalShowmance wrote: Avoiding bullets? I don't care about the Chicken's specific rating. Your point about calculating overall ratings systematically vs. overall
impressions was much more crucial. For all I care you go ahead and change Chicken's rating, I didn't go look it up. His overall should indeed match his
epi 1, I agree.
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Kitty Pryde1 |
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Chicken got an OTTM in his one episode. Several of us asked Warrior to change it, and I don't know how it became OTTN in the first place.
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craig |
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FLF, are we ready to have Warrior finalize the chart by coloring in each name with their overall rating?
Is there a close call procedure for final ratings? If we go by simple majority vote the final ratings are: Parvati - CP Amanda - MOR Cirie - CP Natalie - UTRN Erik - OTTP Alexis - UTR James - MOR Jason - MOR Ozzy - MORN Eliza - CP Ami - MOR Tracy - CPP Kathy - OTTM Chet - OTTN Jonathan - CP Joel - CPN Mikey - MORN Yau-Man - UTRP Mary - UTR Jon - CPM If we apply our usual close call procedure for less than a 55% majority, there are close calls (10-9 vote splits) for the tone ratings of Parvati, Kathy, and Yau-Man. Parvati - both TWD and PWD voted CP (same as majority) Kathy - TWD voted OTTM, PWD voted OTTP, FLF needs to decide Yau-Man - both TWD and PWD voted UTR (against the majority) BTW, I voted UTRP for Yao-Man but I'm fine with him being UTR. |
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Kitty Pryde1 |
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When nine people vote N and 4 vote M, I don't think the 6 person minority is in the right there. Parvati obviously had a tone, and it was either M or N,
and since no one gave Ps while the Ns doubled the Ms, Parvati rightly should get an N.
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craig |
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First, all the Neutral votes (whether static or mixed) are counted together. That makes 10 Neu vs 9 Neg.
Then it's 6 static vs 4 mixed votes in defining the type of Neutral. That's been the procedure since Mixed was introduced. |
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Kitty Pryde1 |
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Yeah, and it's extremely fucked up that 13 people see a tone while six don't and those 6 get to decide the end result. Thirteen people thought Parvati
was at least somewhat negative. 9 of those people voted N, while NO ONE voted P, so it seems those M votes would be leaning more one way than the other. I
don't see why the two neutral portions should be counted together since they're exact opposites, what with one having no tone (yeah right, like ANYONE
other than Alexis was toneless amoung the girls) and the other having a mixture of BOTH tones.
ETA: I know it seems I'm being biased against Parvati, but honestly, this just makes no sense. How the hell is Natalie the ONLY girl that was voted as having any sort of tone? When I look back on this season, I'm not going to see Cirie, Amanda, and Parvati as toneless. I see them and their alliance as the ruthless group of chicks that completely pulled the wool over the guys, especially James and Erik, who were editted somewhat positively, and they played up girl power without really caring. Natalie was invisible most of the time, but when she finally showed up, she was extremely negative. Parvati was next in terms of negativity, and I would settle for a CPM on her. Cirie was next because she was in on the blindside of Ozzy and she talked about not caring about injuries. Amanda was after that because she was just a follower, so I could at least UNDERSTAND a neutral for her. And Alexis just sucks.
Last Edited By: Kitty Pryde1
06/08/08 12:14 PM.
Edited 1 times.
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Kitty Pryde1 |
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Also, what're the rules for close calls again, because Cirie's CP doesn't have 55%, and CPM is close to it.
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Francois40 |
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First, all the Neutral votes (whether static or mixed) are counted together. That makes 10 Neu vs 9 Neg.I agree that static and mixed should be counted differently if we are going to revamp Edgic; "Tone" should outweigh "No Tone" and then work out the particulars later. |
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