S-16 Edgic (editing and logic)

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cantthinkofaname		#5041	[-]
Posts: 1134 (05/13/08 8:37 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Craig, you're to easy on Parv. (not to say she didn't have P moments) I'm guessing you really like her or hate Amanda, or both. idk. Parvati struck me as overconfident and kinda arrogant. Just because she's smiling all the time doesn't make her P. I wouldn't give her an N though. I'd say M. I'd give Cirie a P if anyone. Natalie, I don't know. I didn't really get much tone P or N. Amanda seemed really unfairly treated, her negative comments from other people were not accurate, a few jury Qs were just anti-Amanda and Pro-parvai (Cirie's comes to mind). Yes there were jurors comments that were Anti-Parv and/or pro-Amanda, but rightfully so. I'll probably do static or maybe P for Amanda. (Note: it's 6:34 am right now where I am, and I've stayed up all night. That might explain anything I typed that sounds weird. But being up this long diminished some of my inhibitions too, so that's also a big contributor to me typing so much of my thoughts.)
AllMenAreIslands		#5042	[-]
Posts: 23782 (05/13/08 8:50 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Have to catch up on reading the previous page but just wanted to put this idea down while it's fresh. What if we utilize the 1 and 2 visibility for INV, to indicate levels of INVness? I'm thinking about people who are TOTALLY INV, being INV2. They are like ghosts, no mention in challenge, no footage in rest of ep. Lucky if they make it into a group shot! INV1 would be for people who get either challenge mention, or one closeup during the regular ep. I reckon there are people in the early going who are TRUE INV, i.e. INV2. Rather than reject the idea of using levels of INV, we could use the viz level to reflect that someone did get challenge footage time. I want to review an early ep myself to see how well this might work, and if it's even necessary. I know that INV isn't something worth worrying about too much, or at least it hasn't been, but it would make the UTR1 level actually be the 3rd from bottom in viz level. Just a thought...
dennydoylelives		#5043	[-]
Posts: 2287 (05/13/08 9:29 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Wow, that's a lot to catch up on, especially when getting distracted by the Lividmanda thread on Sucks, and skimming the Spoilers. I guess I'll concede that my Cirie pick didn't quite pan out, but I did always qualify it with a Parvati has a good edit too, so I didn't completely miss the boat this season. Jury performances: Eliza - OTTPPP. She was a simple OTT until she went to vote. Her decisiveness in the voting booth was worth 3 Ps at the very least. Ozzy - OTTM. He was on the verge of Lexness while addressing Parvati, but then did a 180 and gave us a syrupy sentimentality that would have made Pollyanna gag when he turned his thoughts to whatshername. James - MOR. A bit self-righteous, but Parvati's flippant answer could have cost her if she wasn't facing off against a glazed eyed zombie. Erik - OTTP(uppy) He whimpered a little bit when his master's girlfriend rolled up a newspaper and hit him on the nose, but he started wagging his tail again in the voting booth. Catalie - OTTWTF??? Was she asking Parv to munch her carpet after the game, or was it simply incoherent babble? Alexis - MORP. The P is for the dress. MOR because that tends to be the MORon rating. C'mon, looking to people playing Survivor as role models? You shouldn't be allowed to mold young minds if that's where you're going to slum for role models. Stickboy - CP. I didn't realize he was capable of asking coherent and relevant questions, but both of his questions made it appear that he actually payed attention during the game. Cirie - CPN. Cirie seemed to be looking for a fight with Ablanda, but she was rather adept in the way she went about it.
craig		#5044	[-]
Posts: 13111 (05/13/08 9:39 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	The women's alliance were equally involved in the celebratory comments at the beginning (well deserved pride in accomplishments if you asked me). Parv made a comment about being "humbled" when the producers surprised them with F3 and was hardly arrogent about the events of the episode. Didn't do anythuig underhanded. After an Amanda epi and a Cirie epi, the editors showed why and how Parv earned the win and Amanda lost it. PS: It was cool when Alexis got Parv to explain why she is a better role model for young girls than Amanda. She answered well, but I think I saw Amanda role her eyes. Last Edited By: craig 05/13/08 9:42 AM. Edited 1 times.
colleenlover		#5045	[-]
Posts: 8130 (05/13/08 9:48 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	what is your definition of cool?
unduli clone		#5046	[-]
Posts: 2785 (05/13/08 10:00 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	AllMenAreIslands wrote: unduli, I agree that INV needs work. Jif calling a player's name 3 times could be more than INV, tho. We'd need someone to do challenge duty, keeping track of how many times everyone's names are called, so that we could see if 3 were a lot or a little for that challenge. When there are 16 or more players, being called 3 times is a lot. If there are only 6 people, three calls would perhaps be INV worthy. If people still have some eps TIVO'd maybe during the next few months they could work with the FvF season just to test the theories, and see what kind of data we'd have been working with if we had had this system in place. That would be fun, yes? It could be that the scale for INV needs to change over the season. In the first few eps, it would take less to attain UTR status, because of there being so many whose names aren't mentioned more than once, and they are INV in the challenge. If they don't get personal time in the rest of the ep, bam INV. Mid-season, with the number of players reduced by a quarter, we would like see an overall increase in the number of times everyone's names are called. However, again, if we had a watchdog keeping track, rather than having a set chart, maybe the best way is to use the data so that we draw a line depending on how many or how few even get their names called twice, or three times. And so on. What do you think? Raising the scale of what an INV0 would be when there are more people does make sense, and Warrior's VF chart easily makes this differentiation based on the visibility count for the episode versus the amount of players. I was just tossing out a general scenario for an INV0, but I think during the summer we could - and should - really rework the INV rating into a non-subjective concrete rating. Oowatanite wrote: Unduli, INV was always supposed to be a "zero" visibility - UTR0. The player in question was, edgcially, invisible. The voting site never allowed for a viz of 0, so most edgicers began using INV1 instead of INV or UTR0 and that's why a lot of them couldn't/wouldn't differentiate between INV and UTR1. Yeah, that's the problem. I know that it was supposed to be INV0 originally, but since it shares the same visibility as UTR1, the lines become extremely blurred and it turns into a subjective and fandom-based rating.
AllMenAreIslands		#5047	[-]
Posts: 23784 (05/13/08 10:08 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Unduli, see my more recent post. Let's develop definitions for INV1 and INV2. UTR1 would actually have more "oomph" to it if there are TWO possibilities of even lower levels of facetime available. Obviously, where INV is concerned, the 1 and 2 are increasingly less facetime rather than more. Warrior's chart only covers the speaking of sentences. Perhaps what we need, and I guess since I'm so keen on it, it should be me who does it - is a chart tracking the visibility levels - the close-ups without speaking count, and also the # of times people's names are called during challenges. This, added together with Warrior's stats, would give the full picture for each ep. :)
craig		#5048	[-]
Posts: 13112 (05/13/08 10:17 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	After Ep.12 Parvati vs Amanda Themes Interesting that Amanda had the ep.5 confessional about her "Little 4 Clique" Suddenly it become HER alliance more than Parv (after editing showed us Parv building it), and that theme was continuted at the merge with Amanda not liking the fan interlopers. Sure enough, Alexis\Nat vote out her boyfriend and threaten Amanda herself. Amanda is all about the Couples alliance and keeping her clique together. She uses the idol to destroy the fans' chance to take over the game. Parvati, on the other hand, is multi-alliance girl. She's Eliza's go-to girl in ep.4. Parv promises Natalie F4 and does the cauldron dance with Alexis. Meanwhile her relationship with Ozzy was downplayed early, and her making out in ep.2 was downplayed relative to Amanda. Parv is all about gameplay and girlpower. Amanda disses the fans collectively in ep.6, but Parv befriends the fangirls. Looks like Parv may lose the Ozzy\James votes at final TC, but win on the basis of Fan or Girlpower votes. If that's the storyline, whatever anti-Couple editing there was (ep.2) could ironically be seen as favouring Parvati if she's battling Ozzmanda at Final TC. That's the grain of truth in Getting Real's anti-couple and anti-fave predictions (which otherwise have proven woefully wrong). That analysis turned out to be accurate. Interesting that a Parvati win ended up as a defeat for the Couples Allaince. Ozzy and James vote for Amanda, Ozzy professes his love, while those who voted to boot Ozzy reward Parv. She gets 4/4 Girl votes, 4/5 New Airai votes, 3/4 Fan votes, and 5/5 Ozzy boot supporter votes (counting Eliza). The jury vote ended up as a referendum on the Ozzy boot.
Werwanderflugen		#5049	[-]
Posts: 135 (05/13/08 10:18 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Did anyone catch Parvati's interview on EW.com? Apparently, she found the hidden immunity idol during her stay on exile island, but chose not to bring it back to camp because she knew "it would cause chaos." So, interesting move on the editors' part there... a nice little bit of penultimate doubt for our winner. (it's actually a good interview, with some other interesting pieces of information. check it out!)
craig		#5050	[-]
Posts: 13113 (05/13/08 10:36 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Finading the idol means making youself a threat and having to lie to people (to use it effectively). They either left that out because (1) it would contradict the episode theme that giving up immunity is stupid or (2) the editors really wish to avoid giving positive attention to the winner in the penultimate episode.
astroline		#5051	[-]
Posts: 1173 (05/13/08 10:46 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	INV0 and INV2? We can't change it after all this time of using INV1. Please. It would make things so much more unnecessarily complicated. INV is INV, the 1 doesn't even matter because it's a default visibility because they were... invisible. Let's just keep it how it is, it works fine enough. Thanks for the VF chart, cantthinkofaname. Funny that Natalie is technically a 1 for the finale! So I guess I'll adjust some ratings... Dabu Amanda - CPP4 Cirie - MORP3 Natalie - CP2 Parvati - CPM4
dennydoylelives		#5052	[-]
Posts: 2288 (05/13/08 10:48 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Re: the INV rating. My simple rule of thumb for differentiating between INV and UTR1 is in the immediate aftermath of the show, if I have no recollection of the person at all, they were INV, if I can remember the slightest thing about them, then it's UTR1. Finading the idol means making youself a threat and having to lie to people (to use it effectively). They either left that out because (1) it would contradict the episode theme that giving up immunity is stupid or (2) the editors really wish to avoid giving positive attention to the winner in the penultimate episode. or (3) it wasn't used at TC so it was kind of irrelevant.
AllMenAreIslands		#5053	[-]
Posts: 23793 (05/13/08 11:48 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	dennydoylelives wrote: Re: the INV rating. My simple rule of thumb for differentiating between INV and UTR1 is in the immediate aftermath of the show, if I have no recollection of the person at all, they were INV, if I can remember the slightest thing about them, then it's UTR1. Well, the trouble with that kind of subjective rating is that it's all too easy to blank on someone for a multitude of reasons. Having an objective method of differntiating is akin to Warrior's sentence chart. I have missed people who spoke many sentences, because they just seemed to land on my blind side. Because for so long the challenge footage has been dismissed as "has to be shown" I think that it would allow someone who only has mentions in challenges to be recognized, as opposed to dismissed completely. Maybe it's not something that need be discussed. Most Edgickers would just say "INV" but the stats would help to sort out whether someone is INV1 or INV2. (There is no INV0.) And the INV is important, because to get one is to be eliminated from contention. So I think it's worth thinking about a little more. Every season those wily editors get a little more devious. We need to be sharper to stay on top.
dennydoylelives		#5054	[-]
Posts: 2289 (05/13/08 12:17 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	AllMenAreIslands wrote: dennydoylelives wrote: Re: the INV rating. My simple rule of thumb for differentiating between INV and UTR1 is in the immediate aftermath of the show, if I have no recollection of the person at all, they were INV, if I can remember the slightest thing about them, then it's UTR1. Well, the trouble with that kind of subjective rating is that it's all too easy to blank on someone for a multitude of reasons. Having an objective method of differntiating is akin to Warrior's sentence chart. I have missed people who spoke many sentences, because they just seemed to land on my blind side. But if you look at Warrior's chart, and see say Natalie spoke 1 sentence, but you have no recollection of it, that would be an obvious INV. If you look at the chart and see Bertha only had 1 sentence, but you remember her being up the tree throwing coconuts at Amanda's head, she would get a UTRN1, (unless you really, REALLY hate Amanda, then the N might not apply.)
scepticA		#5055	[-]
Posts: 1372 (05/13/08 12:22 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	And the INV is important, because to get one is to be eliminated from contention. So I think it's worth thinking about a little more. Every season those wily editors get a little more devious. We need to be sharper to stay on top. This is really the only reason INV is important. I got the strong feeling that the supposed INV of Parv this season was from people who just wanted to believe/hope that the edgic logic was wrong and she wasn't going to win. (As opposed to those who gave her an MOR2 in the same ep...) She had negligible time on that ep, but it was there. Her UTR1 was as legit as Yul's UTR1 that some were espousing as INV - he was involved in the primary "Oz is great" conversation in which he likened Oz to King Neptune or something. That, like Parv's appearance, justified UTR1. I don't think the editors are getting all that much more devious; if they were, edgic would collapse. The fact that many of the non-spoiled among us can get the edgic choices down to 1 or 2 by the merge indicates that their deviousness is still within generalized limits. If Amanda won, or Alexis, then I'll acknowledge that the editors have changed up their game. Until that happens, we got their number. Heh. What DennyDoyle said does have some credence, but I give INVs only after I see an episode twice. Subjective invisibility is lessened when, after two showings, you STILL don't remember who the heck Player Y was, or if they said anything. Perhaps it's easier to say what INV isn't: A single confessional, not INV. Two sentences in a single conversation with the camera on her, not INV. Any other generalized "non-INV" rules out there? ETA - spelling issues
unduli clone		#5056	[-]
Posts: 2788 (05/13/08 1:19 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	scepticA wrote: This is really the only reason INV is important. I got the strong feeling that the supposed INV of Parv this season was from people who just wanted to believe/hope that the edgic logic was wrong and she wasn't going to win. (As opposed to those who gave her an MOR2 in the same ep...) She had negligible time on that ep, but it was there. Her UTR1 was as legit as Yul's UTR1 that some were espousing as INV - he was involved in the primary "Oz is great" conversation in which he likened Oz to King Neptune or something. That, like Parv's appearance, justified UTR1. That's my issue with INV - it's being thrown around to kill someone's edit (Alexis getting an INV on EI was probably more done as the nail in her coffin than it being a true INV) or not being used to protect someone (like Parvati/Eliza). I think the rules just need to be more specified so we don't have subjective INV's and can truly eliminate those who did get an INV (like Tracy or Amanda). AMAI, I have issues with INV2 (or even INV1). I think that'd cloud judgment even more!
Francois40		#5057	[-]
Posts: 2239 (05/13/08 2:32 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	unduli clone: My idea of INV0: - No confessionals or TCQs. - Less than four sentences notably connected with the player (as in Natalie saying "This reward is awesome. I love pizza!" while off-screen or in a crowd where it's not noticeably a line by her). - The player's name is not said individually (as in "Alexis was feeling sick today," not "I need to have Alexis, Natalie and Jason's vote"), and is not said individually in a challenge more than three times. I agree with that, but what about being called out in a challenge, especially for winning a team challenge? (Yes, I'm still not letting go of the so-called INV James got in China when he was front-and-center and called out by Jeff for scoring a "goal" in the mud challenge :) ) What if we utilize the 1 and 2 visibility for INV, to indicate levels of INVness? I'm thinking about people who are TOTALLY INV, being INV2. They are like ghosts, no mention in challenge, no footage in rest of ep. Lucky if they make it into a group shot! That would be completely confusing to have a 2 mean "MORE invisible" than a one, since higher numbers everywhere else mean higher visibility. If you're going to have that distinction, better to have INV1 (negligible footage) and INV0 (NO footage). Last Edited By: Francois40 05/13/08 2:48 PM. Edited 1 times.
Francois40		#5058	[-]
Posts: 2240 (05/13/08 2:37 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	GretchenisMyGod: Let's do it! I'm soooo Erik but more animated. And I need money. HAHAHA... Having met GimG in person, I can agree--though your hair is even more "noticeable" than Erik's. I'd say less animated, though, and much more cerebral.
9RedWing19		#5059	[-]
Posts: 2141 (05/13/08 3:02 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Head on over to the Sucks forum - Eliza is posting.
fat little fingers		#5060	[-]
Posts: 5529 (05/13/08 3:09 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I said at the beginning of the season that INV should be a rare animal in the ratings. It takes very little to bring someone up to UTR1. But, when INV occurs, it's rarely debatable, because there simply isn't anything there to debate! A good check on INV is when someone can actually argue the rating based on content. Content means it's likely UTR.

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