S-16 Edgic (editing and logic)

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Warrior	Close Call Update	#4961	[-]
Posts: 2604 (05/12/08 9:31 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite
Francois40		#4962	[-]
Posts: 2219 (05/12/08 9:35 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I'm pretty sure the F3 will be back considering Cirie lost becuase there was a F2. I think the lesson from this is that they will mix up F3/F2 so that nobody can plan specifically for either one. Though I still wonder if it was going to be F3, foiled by James' late departure. So really, the editors have to appeal to multiple demographics. Give us wholesome, upbeat, likeable winners like Earl and Sandra. Sandra was likeable? That's funny, mostly I remember an outspoken, in-your-face woman who was always bitching about someone. I still think Parvati is one of the least negative of the villain winners. Some people seem to be predisposed to dislike Parvati being a young cute female willing to use her feminine charms to get ahead. Aside from the flirty moves, she really wasn't all that negative. She was smart, she was committed, and she was very strategic. I think she gets a bad rap because she is a woman making those moves. I do agree, and believe me, Parvati was my very LEAST favorite person in S13 AND the one "fave" I thought "Godawmighty, why HER?" about. But, I respect her game and she managed to plant a bunch of landmines while avoiding others'. They even replayed Parvati and Alexis' complete opening confessionals as a way of explaining the season. Oka-a-yy... so, from here on we should just watch the first segment of the first episode and then go find a nice video game to wile away the time until the Finale. Lol. Time to nominate GimG as the OFFICIAL recap watchdog--specifically noting differences in how given events are portrayed one week to the next. "What in the nickoledeon was that?", So do you think that if a know pair makes it to the Final 2/3 next season, it should be a rule that known pairs will likely make the Finals No, the Known Pair is dead in the water. It has "proven" in both directions, so it has a statistical correlation of zero (approximately). Just scrap it altogether (along with other "Final 2" references since that, too, is no longer a given. Change it to "finals" if you must. I think the producers may actually WANT a tied final vote. They opened up the door in the past few seasons with a final three and this season, they made it even more likely to happen with a final 2 and 8 jurors. Rather than it just being a coincidence or something they are fearing, they seem to be trying for it. To me, that suggests that they have some amazing tiebreaker procedure that they have thought up that would be great TV, but none of us have figured it out yet. I was thinking they would do a challenge with the jurors or make the jurors vote one of their own out before the actual final TC. I just can't buy this--I think it would be very disappointing to viewers to have someone make it all this way, only to lose at the Reunion. It really needs to be resolved while the game is still "in play" (probably for legal reasons, on top of "viewer satisfaction" reasons). YAY for seeing S17! Many of us weren't sure if S16 might be the last, and I never did hear of Probst's renewing his contract (still haven't--might there be a different host?) Last Edited By: Francois40 05/12/08 1:52 PM. Edited 1 times.
OnlyTheHunter		#4963	[-]
Posts: 1532 (05/12/08 9:51 AM) Edgician Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Probst re-upped for at least 2 more games, fall 2008 and Spring 2009 I think. The known pair thing has been done. They figured out you can create drama with people expecting it to not work as well as work. Better personal drama when the known pair break apart late but, golly gee, make it to the end anyway. Easy to edit, easy to create drama. Michael
colleenlover		#4964	[-]
Posts: 8118 (05/12/08 10:12 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Sorry, Michael -my computer is fried -getting a new one to arrive tomorrow. So, sorry, no live recapping. This was a great fun season. I was not shocked by final two because the last time I checked this thread there was a lot of talk of final two -and gee, what do you know! I think the final two, three switchup is actually killing the most important part of the show -having the final three takes out a lot of the mistrust/backstab -and having a final two last minute surprise prevented the same type of mistrust- also, it's a little weird on planning a game you don't know the rules to. (hmmmm, actually, now the knight on the chessboard can't move this way) I thought this was a fun season just for the mistakes alone -Amanda and Parvati look identical to me, and thought the final tc -aside from Eliza's long pause was painfully dull. I thought the fans were really bad players -aside from Tracy. And whoo hoo to knowing it was all going to come down to Eliza and Parvati and that vote -that was fantastic -Eliza made the season in my opinion. What the hell gives with the Amanda edit? Why would you do that? I would think in any season the editng team is most attentive to the final two and not just final winner. Not even an opening confessional?!!! This show is really weird in terms of stroytelling.
TheLurkerSpeaks		#4965	[-]
Posts: 1223 (05/12/08 10:28 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	So Amanda found a way to blow it again! With all the inevitability of her winning in front of the jury presented, it was obvious she either (a) didn't get a chance to face the jury or (b) lost in front of the jury. I focused too much on (a) though after Erik's boot, I think (b) still made more sense than Cirie in front of the jury. Looks like I missed some late discussion about a possible F2. Still, it makes sense with the edit, especially once Natalie (who was the only who could have been the third wheel in front of the jury) left. Cirie never got any connection to the jurors - her edit was always regarding her next move, but it never had scope. When I saw that Natalie left first, I was doubting myself a little, but upon seeing that there was a F3 immunity, I knew Cirie would have to be the one out. Amanda has now proved twice she can lose with a winning hand - there was no doubt that Parvati was winning that vote given their comparative Edgic profiles anyway. From my point of view, it was a thoroughly unlikeable F4, but the editors can't control who wins. All they can do is spin the story. In this case, the editors don't expect us to like Parvati, but they made sure we could see why she won. And the editors basically left us saying, "At least Natalie didn't win," or "At least that fake Amanda didn't win." The audience probably would have been more pleased with Cirie, but even she didn't get the hugely positive portrayal she got the first time around. (Personally, I can't stand Cirie - she comes off a bit too smug to me, but she certainly was a strong gamer.) Not Edgic obviously, but how do the votes flow in a F3? Eliza - Cirie, Ozzy - Amanda, Jason - Parvati, James - Amanda, Alexis - Parvati, Erik - Amanda, Natalie - Parvati. Turns out that including Cirie as an option doesn't really change much. Cirie's problem is that she would have been most jurors' second choice. The original allies (including Erik apparently) preferred Amanda who stayed true to them. The fans preferred Parvati who gave them a chance to get a little further. (Only Eliza clearly would have preferred to vote for Cirie, and only Jason may have also been available to her.)
MasterDarkNinja		#4966	[-]
Posts: 2748 (05/12/08 10:33 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Well the finale was a big success for edgic, but as a fan I'm really disappointed that the two people most similar to Amber (women who didn't prove themselves to be much of a threat last time around) made it to the F2 together, it was even more disappointing to see Cirie, a proven threat from last time (who I thought was screwed preseason because she proved herself to be extremely dangerous if you kept her around to the merge) finish in 3rd place. I can't believe that 3 other people beat Cirie in that popular vote, James was pretty much a nobody, and people still love him?!? I've never seen what's so great about him. Cirie was N early on, but not these last few episodes. Looking around at sucks briefly, at least we can say edgic beat spoilers, and that spoiler readers were the ones who fell for Amanda being the winner this time around, even though that clearly wasn't happening according to edgic due to her really quiet start.
LKMOSCAR		#4967	[-]
Posts: 2644 (05/12/08 11:07 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Did anyone get the confessional count?
fat little fingers		#4968	[-]
Posts: 5524 (05/12/08 11:15 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Francois: I just can't buy this--I think it would be very disappointing to viewers to have someone make it all this way, only to lose at the Reunion. It really needs to be resolved while the game is still "in play" (probably for legal reasons, on top of "viewer satisfaction" reasons). It certainly was a gamble on SEG's part. If Jeff checked the votes and found a tie, could he have announced the tie-break without a live reunion show? Never. But to do the tie-break in the States with everyone limo'd in and powdered and hair sprayed? Bizarre and definitely not Survivor. It was a gamble, but it worked. Survivor Lost: Hey Warrior, Now that Parveti has won......... Whatca going to do? I'm going to the Bahamas to go fishing...and fatlittlefingers is going with me!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Okay, now I'll never get away with agreeing with Warrior on anything! Lol. I'm strictly fair and unbiased in my Edgic decisions! :P No, really... Honest. ... I swear. I will make a tie-breaker post this eve.
OnlyTheHunter		#4969	[-]
Posts: 1533 (05/12/08 11:50 AM) Edgician Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Let's take a quick look at Final TC. Here's what the editors had to use to explain the ending. Parvati 5 votes, Amanda 3, must show how one edged the other. Cirie - Why Parvati over me? - The season made out Parvati to be as strategic as Cirie, and to better explain her processes to the viewer than Cirie, who was "only about [herself]." That explains why, it came up at Final TC. Ozzy - hatred of Parvati, love of Amanda - Have to show the couples, when in the end it was realy the women's alliance dominating. Gives doubt to Parvati as a result. Slyly include the 3 fave woman aliance early (with Amanda willing to stop flirting with Ozzy) to show the real outcome as a lesser story that evolves. Alexis - Parvati role model, Amanda's fake %%$%! - must include Amanda's blowup with Cirie, doe-eyes at times. Be sure to include how Parvati drew them in and how Amanda didn't want to align with Alexis/Natalie, they decided Parvati's win. Jason - Amanda on Ozzy, Parvati redeeming qualities - Reinforces Amanda tight with Ozzy, Parvati stuck to her girl alliance. Erik - Upset over Amanda's last two TC's with him- Amanda's relationship with him needs time on screen, he forgives her so make sure to justify her actions and reactions to him, so we know she wasn't all in the wrong. Eliza - Parvati's attitude toward her, Amanda too superficial - Must make her rivalry with Parvati a plot point. Must show Amanda as more undeserving. James - Grills Parvati and says Amanda has it won - must include Parvati's talk to James after Ozzy's boot to explain the teardown of their relationship. Make Amanda the false winner near the end to provide a shock. Natalie - Parvati's bedroom question and Amanda as a zombie - Must include Parvati's flirting due to this question, and since couple have to be shown, decide to make Parvati shown as one who changed her game up. Be sure to include how Parvati drew them in the fans Alexis/Natalie and how Amanda didn't want to align with Alexis/Natalie, they decided Parvati's win in the end. Reinforces Amanda as phony. - - - - Analysis - Parvati's edit - No way to make Parvati a hero winner. Statements by Ozzy and James and prevent that. Must deal with old flirting strategy due to Natalie and the couples alliance, but also show her as a strategic player. Amanda - Must make her look socially undeserving and too superficial to win in the end. Make her loyal to Ozzy. Make her look like a winner late due to James' comment, not just a goat. Must use her front and center with Erik. The dividing line quote was Amanda's lack of desire to align with Alexis and Natalie. It was Parvati merging with the fans that carried the extra votes she needed, and viewers recall that Amanda rejected it initially. So many of the faves (Ozzy, Cirie) reveled in picking off the fans, Parvati comes up aces for seeing their value to help her. Michael edited - change "fans" to "viewers" for clarity Last Edited By: OnlyTheHunter 05/12/08 12:01 PM. Edited 1 times.
AllMenAreIslands		#4970	[-]
Posts: 23752 (05/12/08 12:07 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Nice analysis, Michael. This time the questions and votes really helped the editors to work backwards and choose certain tidbits to help explain the outcome. Just to answer Rob van, the strongest indicator for Parvati continued to be her Ep 1edit. She was not the only one to receive a CP, but by the merge, she was the only CP from ep 1 to still be in the game. Most casual viewers may have forgotten the ep 1, and that's why Edgic works - we don't forget. Each week the chart has another column added, but all the other ratings are still there to be pored over. The only (minor) question I have with respect to the overall ratings is whether any of Parvati's UTRs might have been MORs with low viz. This is where I would continue to advocate firming up the definitions of MOR and UTR and encouraging people to beware using UTR to describe a low-viz MOR role. A string of ratings that goes UTR-MOR-UTR, even if viz is 1 or 2, would help to better reflect the edit.
Kitty Pryde1		#4971	[-]
Posts: 4081 (05/12/08 12:09 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Her UTRs WERE UTRs. They were fluff at best.
AllMenAreIslands		#4972	[-]
Posts: 23754 (05/12/08 12:14 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	There were many times I felt someone was being rated UTR when it should have been MOR, or even CP. I can't argue specifics at this moment without at the least reviewing the PBP or rewatching. I'm just saying, be on the lookout for that kind of thing. What is fluff, anyway?
GrenadeJumper85		#4973	[-]
Posts: 4749 (05/12/08 12:28 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	What is fluff, anyway? Usually confessionals have no substance or just seem like they are just there. Confessionals like "Omg I'm so happy we won this challenge it was great!" or "It was so cool seeing the Micronesian men". Stuff like that.
chaperone		#4974	[-]
Posts: 2493 (05/12/08 12:40 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	OnlyTheHunter wrote: Few thoughts from chaperone's post above. I screwed up Alexis all on my own. I was overly concerned with the prior returning player seasons. Parvati always stood out, I couldn't take the step at the merge to accept it. My fault. Hey OTH...I wasn't meaning to rank on you or something...I think people who bring opposing views are always vital to the blood of edgic, and I was pointing it out as evidence of not being spoiled. Even if I may have disagreed with your position, I respect and enjoy you, OTH. As far as Relynn, maybe I'm dumb, it seemed like rooting. Remember belkac, somthing like that, who showed up late in Palau and looooooved Ian? That's how this felt to me. Yeah, it was definitely fandom, but it coincided with an Amanda F2 spoiler as well. Last Edited By: chaperone 05/12/08 12:42 PM. Edited 1 times.
OnlyTheHunter		#4975	[-]
Posts: 1534 (05/12/08 12:47 PM) Edgician Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Oh, chap, I know it wasn't a slam on me, just that I had to be spoiled to pick Alexis. No I didn't. I just had to suck at Edgic a little this time. That's par for the course. The fandom thing was simply that I wasn't picking up on any spoiler, it read like a Amanda lover/Parvati hater. I do think Parvati hate clouded some hopes as much as anything else, because that was a season long thing. I play Edgic without the heat of a fan. It's not always easy, and I know some prefer to post immediately. I have to give things time to review, and that way I can step back. I don't mean to imply that all people who couldn't back Parvati were off kilter, but many comments were more about her than anything regarding Edgic. I think Parvati's UTR's were clearly that, AMAI. But it wasn't just flulff. I hope some will rewatch, I will, to check. Michael
fat little fingers		#4976	[-]
Posts: 5525 (05/12/08 1:12 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I think Parvati's UTR's were clearly that, AMAI. But it wasn't just flulff. I hope some will rewatch, I will, to check. Good, because I agree. Parvati was certainly not a big screen presence, but most eps she was in at all, often had her make some comment that showed her head was in the game. If you had her on your radar at all, those little comments were a small "bingo!" moment that ticked off the little box next to "Makes a winner-type comment." It never sewed it up for her, but it kept her edit tended to. The three UTRs were weak, but the only one where the bottom fell out was the UTR1. P.S.: But it still required that opening statement for her to be on anyone's radar.
Francois40		#4977	[-]
Posts: 2232 (05/12/08 1:28 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Good, because I agree. Parvati was certainly not a big screen presence, but most eps she was in at all, often had her make some comment that showed her head was in the game. Yes, and I was just thinking how cool it would be, for those with video-editing talent, for someone to go back through her footage (and her SPV) all season and splice together every "winner's edit" piece into one long "film". It would be cool to have this for every season, actually, but it's a monster chore, and would need to be done by someone with solid Edgic knowledge to know which Parv screentime was "significant" and which was not.
chaperone		#4978	[-]
Posts: 2494 (05/12/08 1:40 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Side note...I haven't heard from Lemun regarding the voting site for next year...so as it lies...I'm needing to find someone to take my place again...unless Lemun's just really busy...
briand73		#4979	[-]
Posts: 69 (05/12/08 1:51 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	OnlyTheHunter wrote: The dividing line quote was Amanda's lack of desire to align with Alexis and Natalie. It was Parvati merging with the fans that carried the extra votes she needed, and viewers recall that Amanda rejected it initially. So many of the faves (Ozzy, Cirie) reveled in picking off the fans, Parvati comes up aces for seeing their value to help her. I think this is one of the main reasons people were picking Parvati rather than Cirie to be the winner. They both had reasonable winner edits, but we were beat over the head with Cirie's dislike of the fans and her feeling that there were intruding in the favorites' home. Parvati was never shown to be that way with the fans.
briand73		#4980	[-]
Posts: 70 (05/12/08 1:54 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I've noticed a few people posting season-long ratings charts. Is there a convention around here that only official stats people or ratings watchdogs post those charts, or is it open to everyone? I'm planning on keeping my own chart next season to remind myself how I was leaning at different points in the season, but I don't know if I should just keep it private to keep things from being too confusing, or it posting it would be acceptable.

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S-16 Edgic (editing and logic)

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