S-15 Edgic (editing and logic)

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TheLurkerSpeaks		#3401	[-]
Posts: 1053 (12/14/07 9:16 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	There you go, CR. Now, I feel better about my M rating for Denise. I guess I hinted at it before, but I still feel Todd wins. He's got all the doubt. Surely, nice Amanda will get all the votes over mean Todd. Why make it so obvious how the season ends? Because it won't be that simple. I think it is clear that either Denise or Courtney will leave at F4 because this last episode strongly suggests Todd and Amanda face off before the jury. It doesn't even really matter which leaves at F4 because I don't think either is truly a contender except as a "protest alternative" and the three way vote makes it awfully difficult to win that way. Courtney is indifferent to the culture and virtually indifferent to the game. Denise is the puppet, and even James, the player who praised her work ethic, considered her irrelevant to the game. So look at the votes - Jaime - She has no connection to Amanda, and her only scene with Todd showed her confiding to him about the idols. Based upon that, she votes either for or against Todd. It wouldn't surprise me to see her vote for him. Jean Robert - Supposedly, we know he's voting for Amanda based upon his threat, but will he follow through? He's a poker player, and that may well have been a bluff. Plus, we know how the producers love voting irony. It wouldn't surprise me to see him vote for Todd. Frosti - He thought he was good with both Todd and Amanda until he suddenly found he wasn't. This could well be a protest vote for Courtney (in particular) or Denise. Amanda may have a slight edge because she didn't eat the cheeseburgers, but again, it would not overly surprise me to see him vote for Todd. James - If Todd has a guaranteed vote, it is James. He certainly won't be a protest vote, and from what we saw, he was closer to Todd than Amanda. Erik - OK, Amanda gets this vote unless he's upset she didn't keep him around after getting his hopes up. Peih Gee - Sure, she bonded with Amanda this last episode, but it ended in disappointment once again. At this point, I'd expect her to vote for Amanda, but it would only be a mild surprise if she voted for Todd as the best player. After all, Amanda only has herself to blame for being stuck with Todd still around. Courtney/Denise - This vote depends greatly on how they exit the game, but as of right now, I'd give Todd the edge for either. He seems to be the hub of everything, and Amanda only seems connected to him.
colleenlover		#3402	[-]
Posts: 7423 (12/14/07 9:57 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Micheal, I don't know -I have two parties I have to go to on Sunday -but I'm hoping to be back in time (eggnog filled and everything) Pick from Todd (Pick from Todd) Or...A...manda! (Or Amanda) This is just great -my other favorite hit from the 80s -I was like eight bopping around to this, doing those leg kicks and hand in fist moves and everything. (And Colleen DOES really look like the video girl)
Cassidy666		#3403	[-]
Posts: 6571 (12/14/07 11:24 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I know the edgic is going to rate Amanda a P this week from the sheer overload of Amanda-centric and skewed editing shots, but I have to say this: This episode completely turned me off on Amanda. I could not stand her at all. I had absolutely no feelings about her before this other than that she was boring, which is typical. But the combination of sickly sweet comments, sucking up to Pei Gee and the somewhat hypocritical bitching (in that oh so nice indignant way) about others made me feel queasy. Sorry, I had to vent. Courtney, on the other hand, was refreshingly open and will be rated N or M as edgic dictates, but who cares? I'm still rooting for her to pull off an upset, especially considering the edit in that last episode has been designed to show Todd in the worst possible light. The jury really might hate him that much if he faces them. Denise... Obviously going to be M due to her cultural positivity and negativity towards Peih Gee. Her story has been about discovery and enjoying the culture. Pretty one note. I so hope Courtney can save this from being predictable.
colleenlover		#3404	[-]
Posts: 7424 (12/14/07 12:53 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Cassidy, absolutely right. I still think posters get too sensitive and when they see an negative or postive attributed to their favorite, that it is an attack. They are too different things entirely. Amanda was clearly positive this episode, but doesn't mean I like her. Courtney was negative this episode, but doesn't mean I hate her. - quite contrary actually.
Francois40		#3405	[-]
Posts: 1639 (12/14/07 1:37 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I would say that in the future, winner votes should stop at the final seven, possibly even earlier. Hey, that makes a lot of sense--and would save some of this last minute quibbling, let's hope. I'm kind of disappointed my [colleenlover's] theory didn't come about. Todd and Amanda getting cocky; Courtney has her epiphany and whoops them at the final challenge. cl, I've secretly been hoping what you said would come true, to spice things up and because I think you have the best eye for editing techniques of anyone here. When "trip to the Great Wall" came up (we KNEW that would be a big reward this season) and Courtney was among the ones going, I almost hopped a jet to where you are to congratulate you in person! But alas...as a matter of fact, the Reward itself was cut amazingly short and almost nothing about the Wall itself shown, just the silliness with the food. We saw more footage on Stacy and Lisi drinking coffe than we did on the Great Wall of China! That was disappointing, but OTOH, we're always complaining that they show gushy Rewards instead of the real intrigue of camp life, and this time we got our wish, so that's cool. There's a half-hearted attempt to make Todd and Courtney look N this episode with Amanda complaining about their complaining, but it wasn't really all that effective, in my opinion. Heck, Courtney even gave Peih Gee an arrow! Courtney is a definite M from me...not just the arrow, but she apologized to PG before going on the trip, despite that it wasn't up to her to apologize since she didn't do the picking. (Speaking of Courtney and the arrows, I wonder how many gave her arrows simply because they thought she'd be a lousy shot, and thus no competition--never thinking that she could assist their OTHER competition! I wonder if an eagle-eyed viewer can figure out from the colors, who gave how many arrows to whom.) We had much of this episode through Peih-Gee's eyes. It was by far a more sympathetic edit for her than not. Very good point about seeing it through her eyes, and of course it was an unmitigated Sympathy episode. Most of our reactions and tone ratings are related to how people treated PG, directly or indirectly. But its not really about me liking PG or not. The story was basically about how PG has worked so hard to get where she is at, but nobody will give her a chance. PG let Denise go on a reward, but Denise is still mean to PG. Then you have Amanda going up to PG and saying, hey you aren't so bad afterall.. I really do respect you and how bad everyone has treated you. See above--PG is the protagonist this time; everything else spins around her, including the episode's suspense. 3 TC's? Now I missed that entirely. F2 after all? Or a challenge held at one? Don't know. Hmmm. Someone somewhere pointed that it could come to a 3-3-1 tie and some form of tiebreak required? That would certainly require another vote, but they don't usually call it a separate TC...maybe the top 2 get ONE MORE change to plug themselves? Coming back from the reward, wanting to bring sandwich's for Amanda/PG, but Todd ate them, bringing back Amanda/PG some nuts, and then Amanda saying "Denise is showing more compassion for my situation, and it's being noted." Ah, thanks for the reminder, the "it's being noted" part in particular. I guess it's supposed to be noted in our ratings :) If she had just shrugged at PG and said, "Personally, I'm sorry, but it's a game." We might have still given her a bit of an N, but there would have been "game" in it. Her N was not that good for her. Right--the way she avoided PG's gaze and made her "I don't want to keep PG..." comments "secretly" to the others was extremely dismissive to PG, and ironic after the big "I'm always the last one picked, the one they forget about" confessional from Denise herself earlier. She might have at least looked at PG and said "I'm so sorry, I just have to think of my game right now and it's not wise to being you with me." BTW, if we're doing 80s "remakes", how can anyone have forgotten the song "Amanda", by Boston (1986)? Last Edited By: Francois40 12/14/07 1:50 PM. Edited 1 times.
Oowatanite		#3406	[-]
Posts: 4466 (12/14/07 1:56 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Francois40 wrote: BTW, if we're doing 80s "remakes", how can anyone have forgotten the song "Amanda", by Boston (1986)? Right Here !
misty aras		#3407	[-]
Posts: 14 (12/14/07 2:00 PM) I don't get most of the jokes Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Sticking with the 80s music theme, does anyone else think Courtney looks like Aimee Mann in the Voices Carry video? I've enjoyed reading the analysis here this season, but I'm still stumped. I was really hoping for a final with PG, Amanda and Todd. With Amanda only getting 4 arrows from the others, how does this bode for her chances with the jury? I didn't pay attention to where each person placed their arrows, but maybe Courtney was the smart one to divide hers up among everyone, including PG.
Kitty Pryde1		#3408	[-]
Posts: 1248 (12/14/07 2:00 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I'm still wondering whether it was N or NN for Todd this episode, given the fact that the editors had talk of him eating the food that was meant for Amanda and Peih-Gee, his bitchy sass when Peih-Gee was voted off, his talk of betraying Amanda (which means he's talked about screwing over pretty much every person from Fei Long), the fact that he had the NERVE to complain about a REWARD that he didn't even win, and was taken on by the real winner, and the fact that he was up against sympathetic, underdog Peih-Gee. I mean, there was a TON of negativity for Todd this episode, enough to completely destroy his chances at winning, IMO, and I'm wondering if an NN might be appropriate.
chaperone		#3409	[-]
Posts: 2237 (12/14/07 2:07 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	A few thoughts: 1. Regarding PG's tone: Some are adament she's P and some are adament she's N. I naturally put her in the N camp and someone I was watching with had the opposite reaction. Whenever I think someone's a particular tone and there are many others who say the opposite, it's a good tip-off that that person is quite possibley M. 2. Complex Tribe Should have guided us all along regarding PG. Being spoiled it would've been unfair of me to say that sooner, so I don't want this to sound like "I would've told you so" but I was hoping that'd play a more significant role in people's analysis. John Who was a totally non-complex tribe and for future seasons Complex Tribe Theory should stay up on the edgic radar. 3. Drive by spoiler readers telling edgic we suck make me mad. Like OTH said, stop reading spoilers, then come and contribute to edgic. We don't drive by you in Spoilers and tell you you all suck, don't do the same to us. 4. Congratulations to edgic proving again that they aren't actually influenced by spoilers much: In a heavily spoiled season, the winner pick is as up in the air as ever as late as the F5. 5. #4 above is a testament to the reality that this season's editing has been spectacular. Edgically speaking, everyone has Denise eliminated as of episode 2, yet the editing pattern this year could easily even make a case for her or anyone in the F4 in that 1) The editing is very different than past seasons; 2) Each boot got good attention for several episodes before their boot therefore all of the final 4, even Denise, could have a case made for them as winner. 6. Maybe I'm naive but I can only imagine that they asked someone at CBS who doesn't know who wins Survivor to make the F4 promo nicknames and sequential placement. It's what I'd do if I wanted to make an unbiased promo... 7. Astro's an edgic contributor and therefore someone I'll defend. I far prefer the "dumbass" Cassandra pick than drive by haters. We all have things we can improve in our tone and way we interract with each other including Astro, OO, FLF, myself, OTH, Warrior, and whoever, but in the words of my 6th grade best friend who was being picked on by the popular kids "lay off!"
fat little fingers		#3410	[-]
Posts: 5142 (12/14/07 2:08 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	he has zero loyalty, makes alliances all over the place, and will lie with wild abandon. There is nothing wrong with these efforts in a game like Survivor, but do them in moderation, for goodness sake. scep, this sounds exactly like the big issue Todd will face at jury. If he and Amanda are the f-2, then we have ASS redux. RobM's edit was pushed as hard into N as possible, with his comment about Tom's son really pushing him over the line. Has Todd been pushed that hard? Not at one incident, but they've certainly stacked up a lot of wild-eyed moves for him over time. (I still say, you don't get to say "bitch" that many times and win.) This is where Todd's original game comment, that he'd do "anything" to win the million dollars, becomes his fate. Will the jury say he went too far, like Rob's jury, or will he get the grudging acknowledgement that he played the game hard, but fair? Courtney is his only ally at this point. If she ends up on the jury, will Todd have any votes?
chaperone		#3411	[-]
Posts: 2238 (12/14/07 2:11 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	FLF...can you verify that Sunday 3PM Pacific deadline for this episode is a fair time to switch over the voting site to the finale?
Kitty Pryde1		#3412	[-]
Posts: 1250 (12/14/07 2:17 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	A few thoughts: 1. Regarding PG's tone: Some are adament she's P and some are adament she's N. I naturally put her in the N camp and someone I was watching with had the opposite reaction. Whenever I think someone's a particular tone and there are many others who say the opposite, it's a good tip-off that that person is quite possibley M. I don't think it was really possible to view her as negative this episode this time. Unlike last episode, when she whined about the reward, we saw Denise (with subtitles) saying that she didn't want her to go on the reward. There was no apology this time. Peih-Gee was given the extreme underdog edit and she was supposed to be shown as deserving. The three people who went on the reward were extremely negative, while Amanda and Peih-Gee were portrayed as nice people and deserving. 2. Complex Tribe Should have guided us all along regarding PG. Being spoiled it would've been unfair of me to say that sooner, so I don't want this to sound like "I would've told you so" but I was hoping that'd play a more significant role in people's analysis. John Who was a totally non-complex tribe and for future seasons Complex Tribe Theory should stay up on the edgic radar. I think the thing about Peih-Gee though, was that she was a solitary complex character who was seperated off from the rest of her non-complex tribe. As an underdog, that put her in the Chris Daugherty position, not necessarily on the complex tribe, but a complex loner on that tribe. Not to mention, her tribe got complex at the time of the swap.
fat little fingers		#3413	[-]
Posts: 5143 (12/14/07 2:22 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	FLF...can you verify that Sunday 3PM Pacific deadline for this episode 6 p.m. eastern works for me. I certainly think it is as close to the wire as anyone should need.
chaperone		#3414	[-]
Posts: 2239 (12/14/07 2:29 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Kitty Pryde1 wrote: A few thoughts: 1. Regarding PG's tone: Some are adament she's P and some are adament she's N. I naturally put her in the N camp and someone I was watching with had the opposite reaction. Whenever I think someone's a particular tone and there are many others who say the opposite, it's a good tip-off that that person is quite possibley M. I don't think it was really possible to view her as negative this episode this time. Unlike last episode, when she whined about the reward, we saw Denise (with subtitles) saying that she didn't want her to go on the reward. There was no apology this time. Peih-Gee was given the extreme underdog edit and she was supposed to be shown as deserving. The three people who went on the reward were extremely negative, while Amanda and Peih-Gee were portrayed as nice people and deserving. 2. Complex Tribe Should have guided us all along regarding PG. Being spoiled it would've been unfair of me to say that sooner, so I don't want this to sound like "I would've told you so" but I was hoping that'd play a more significant role in people's analysis. John Who was a totally non-complex tribe and for future seasons Complex Tribe Theory should stay up on the edgic radar. I think the thing about Peih-Gee though, was that she was a solitary complex character who was seperated off from the rest of her non-complex tribe. As an underdog, that put her in the Chris Daugherty position, not necessarily on the complex tribe, but a complex loner on that tribe. Not to mention, her tribe got complex at the time of the swap. I recall Vanuatu's tribal complexity being debatly comparable. Am I remembering that wrong? Some thought Lopevi was complex and some thought Yasur. Wow, why do I still remember those tribe names? Lopevi was tricky because they had a quick 5-4 "fat five" majority that stuck together, but within that 5 it was never simple. I don't recally Yasur being much more complex until late game. It's the early game where complexity is important. Hiding the winner among the weeds. Regarding PG, I see your point, but I also perceived it very differently. The whining was off-base to me, it was whiny and grating to me and my ears. The TC comment about her being positive and seeing a reaction from several players and jurors was hysterically demonstrating a lack of self-awareness. But the whole underdog edit brings a big P in for many, hence an M tone to me.
fat little fingers		#3415	[-]
Posts: 5144 (12/14/07 2:30 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I don't think it was really possible to view her as negative this episode this time. Absolutely agree, Kitty. Jeff gave us Peih-Gee's edit for this ep and her whole season, when he asked Todd if he would vote off someone who deserved to be there at the end or play strategic and get rid of them. How much more blatant could the eds be about their intent for how we perceived Peih-Gee? (Plus I see it as another nail in Todd's coffin that he is forced to say that he did not want to face someone "worthy".) "Worthy" is what the winner edit is all about. And as someone pointed out last night, Peih-Gee passed her "worthy" torch to Amanda in her confessional about getting to know Amanda better.
Francois40		#3416	[-]
Posts: 1640 (12/14/07 3:20 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	5. #4 above is a testament to the reality that this season's editing has been spectacular. Edgically speaking, everyone has Denise eliminated as of episode 2, yet the editing pattern this year could easily even make a case for her or anyone in the F4 in that 1) The editing is very different than past seasons; 2) Each boot got good attention for several episodes before their boot therefore all of the final 4, even Denise, could have a case made for them as winner. This statement is actually ANTI-Edgic, however; if you're going to use the (cop out) excuse that "this season was edited very differently than others", then what you're saying is that there is no pattern in editing that points to the winner, i.e., no Edgic.
astroline		#3417	[-]
Posts: 582 (12/14/07 3:32 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	chaperone wrote: 7. Astro's an edgic contributor and therefore someone I'll defend. I far prefer the "dumbass" Cassandra pick than drive by haters. We all have things we can improve in our tone and way we interract with each other including Astro, OO, FLF, myself, OTH, Warrior, and whoever, but in the words of my 6th grade best friend who was being picked on by the popular kids "lay off!" Thank you so much, chap, that means a lot to me. I am going to work on not being so defensive when doing my ratings and present my points of view in a more diplomatic way. I apologize to everyone for being an ass in my posts yesterday, it's no excuse but I've had a lot on my mind lately. But seriously, thank you for saying that, I really appreciate it. :) I agree fully with Kitty, FLF & Francois regarding PG. So what if she was a little bitchy and lacking self-awareness? That's just PG's personality, not the edit itself. The edit was trying to get us to root for PG one last time before her final "battle" led ultimately to her defeat. Like I said before, if James got an OTTP for being outwitted by PG & Jaime, then PG should definitely at least be able to get a CPP for fighting till the very end and going out with a positive attitude. Especially since most, if not all, scenes in this episode with her WERE very positive. Also when contrasted to ungrateful and whiny Courtney & Todd, and puppet Denise, it only made PG even more P in the viewer's eyes. Same with Amanda. Now that PG's gone though, I have to say what an awesome edit she got. It's nice to see an end-game female get a high-visibility CP edit again!
chaperone		#3418	[-]
Posts: 2243 (12/14/07 3:36 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Francois40 wrote: 5. #4 above is a testament to the reality that this season's editing has been spectacular. Edgically speaking, everyone has Denise eliminated as of episode 2, yet the editing pattern this year could easily even make a case for her or anyone in the F4 in that 1) The editing is very different than past seasons; 2) Each boot got good attention for several episodes before their boot therefore all of the final 4, even Denise, could have a case made for them as winner. This statement is actually ANTI-Edgic, however; if you're going to use the (cop out) excuse that "this season was edited very differently than others", then what you're saying is that there is no pattern in editing that points to the winner, i.e., no Edgic. I knew the murky territory I was in while making the statement...but the reality is if this season were the editors versus the edgicers, they got us this time even if we had some successes. I love edgic. And to contradict myself, nobody here thinks Denise will win. That's a credit to edgic.
dennydoylelives		#3419	[-]
Posts: 1373 (12/14/07 3:43 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	chaperone wrote: And to contradict myself, nobody here thinks Denise will win. That's a credit to edgic. I must admit, I was very tempted to throw my vote her way when I voted this morning.
astroline		#3420	[-]
Posts: 583 (12/14/07 3:57 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I just submitted my final ratings. I think most stayed the same. I understand a possible M for Courtney, but her P "moments" were very subdued, and her being lumped together constantly with OTTN Todd and their actions together makes her get an N for me. Of course, an N for Courtney is usually a good thing, since people like her even more when she's negative. Final ratings... Amanda - CPP4 Courtney - MORN2 Denise - CPM4 Peih Gee - CPP5 Todd - OTTN4 Winners... 1. Amanda 2. Courtney -gap- 3. Todd -Great Wall of China- 4. Denise

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S-15 Edgic (editing and logic)

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