S-15 Edgic (editing and logic)

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GretchenIsMyGod		#2041	[-]
Posts: 2915 (11/05/07 12:16 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Peih- Gee intentionally lost a battle when Jeff said in ep1 that this season is about a battle to survive. But that was reporting, not editing manipulation. What PG lacks for me is the shots of Amanda and Todd smiling at each other (ep.1 at the temple, ep.7 at the feast), the shots of Amanda acknowledging the Leslie and Ashley boots, the shots of Todd and Amanda kneeling in the temple. None of the arguments against PG (not for others who aren't PG) have seemed to hold any weight for me. What does make me doubt PG, outside of Edgic is: 1) Probst's pre-game comments 2) (Spoiled?) Edgicians who assert PG is dead 3) Etc. (not a spoiler by any means, but probably gauche to mention in the Edgic thread) Last Edited By: GretchenIsMyGod 11/05/07 12:27 PM. Edited 1 times.
Kitty Pryde1		#2042	[-]
Posts: 388 (11/05/07 12:19 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	getting real wrote: Great vid-capping, flf. Grateful for all the work you put in. One of PG's vid-caps took my eye and I had to re-watch. Her expression when Probst announces that FL will keep its beach is one of despondency. He is emphasizing FL's dominance and she just looks defeated. Were she to endure and win, I would've expected some expression of defiance here. Instead we get the continuation of a pattern where she is always stymied by FL's winning ways: Earlier, when announcing that the winning the war matters more than winning battles, she'd been trumped by James reminding her that they're not winning anything... And now, to top it off, when she tries to tell Courtney that ZH's shelter is awesome, she is immediately put in her place: "*This* is your shelter," she is told, consigning her to her to her fate and eventual oblivion. ZH is not relevant to this season and PG is no engine that could; she is not Danni or Chris. She is Teresa all over again and she ain't winning. You do realize that that entire scene was just Peih-Gee and Courtney joking around, right? PG: Wow, you're shelter sucks. Courtney: Yeah...pauses I mean YOUR shelter sucks. PG: Nah, our shelter rocks. Courtney: Well this IS your shelter. It was just another funny moment in another funny episode. I think they really wanted to give us some comedy in the merge episode, given how many funny moments there were that didn't even involve Jaime's stupidity.
GretchenIsMyGod		#2043	[-]
Posts: 2916 (11/05/07 12:31 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	You do realize that that entire scene was just Peih-Gee and Courtney joking around, right? Still odd it was included, or at least I wondered why it was. ALL COMPARISONS OF PG TO TERESA/JAKE/ELISABETH/COLLEEN ARE MOOT! PG's edit has been handled VERY differently from these guys!! They were ignored in stretches or spottily used until they became underdog hero favorites! Edgic question I've been seriously wondering: Say Rodger beat Lis in the F2. Or JFP beat Lillian. The doubt is already there (based on the strong competition from the runner-up). So would their edits really need to be tweaked that much? Last Edited By: GretchenIsMyGod 11/05/07 12:54 PM. Edited 1 times.
OnlyTheHunter		#2044	[-]
Posts: 1126 (11/05/07 12:58 PM) Edgician Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I am not taking my eyes off Amanda, but at this point in Guatemala, we actually knew about Danni personally. She prayed, she was spunky, had fun messing with Gary, had a birthday party and was clearly a personality. While technically unstated, she was actually shown leading her tribe in its votes. We had knowledge about her. That's what's missing with Amanda. Strategy is one thing, complexity another. She is playing the game. But I can't think of one comment about her offhand, nor one thing she's said specifically about anyone left in the game sans Jean-Robert. No confessionals about keeping or cutting Courtney, who is proving to be important to the outcome, it seems. She saw Jaime as the leader, okay there's that. Amanda is always in present time except for the desire of elimination toward Zhan Hu, but I haven't heard her say why it's a good idea. I have heard Todd say he wants JR gone, and after the threat I can see why. I did not hear why Amanda has done anything in relation to her own game. Maybe it comes. But pre-merge, she was under-developed based on any glance at prior winners. It's not all about numbers, though it's part of it. But it's non-existant SPV combined with lack of confessionals from her of any substance combined with lack of character development that concerns me. Think of pre-merge moments of the winners that stand out. Jenna and the pretty girls showering. Sandra saving the day at the market. Amber and Rob growing personally close. Chris saving himself on day 3 by forming the Fat Five and being F2 with every player on his tribe (except Twila, wink wink). Tom killing a shark and being a man among men. Danni egging on Gary and being a Christian who prayed with most of her tribe. Aras and the hands of fire, setting himself up well. Yul fighting the racial stereotypes CaoBoi harps on, as well as being forced into the Aitu4. Earl on the mountaintops and befriending YauMan. Every one of those moments are immediately memorable for the winner that season, and almost all did not involve gameplay or occur at a challenge. Amanda has nothing like that. She lost her top at a challenge. That's pretty much it. I know JR's a poker player, Todd's been watching since Hatch called himself the winner, Courtney hates everyone, Frosti is a "park-something", James can't play socially. What do I know about Amanda? Nothing. By the merge, Edgic history tells me I should. Does it come later? Maybe. Should I already have a glimpse? Yes. Maybe her mom threatned to kill the producers if they showed her too much pre-merge. That must be it. :-) Michael
TallBill		#2045	[-]
Posts: 18 (11/05/07 1:32 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Warrior: The only thing in your sequence that seems all that complex to me is the first part, where she tries to get Courtney and JR to patch up their differences. She shows a little spunk there, and the effort illustrates that she's a nice person. It shows something about her, as a person. There are a few other occasional moments of that, but as OnlyTheHunter just pointed out, they're not very memorable. The average viewer has to guess who Amanda is right now -- e.g., what she's like as a person. There's no way to be emotionally invested in her progress through this game, at this point.
TheLurkerSpeaks		#2046	[-]
Posts: 1005 (11/05/07 2:38 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Exactly, OTH! As of right now, the biggest case for Amanda is made up of still photos of reaction shots, which do not register with the casual viewer in real time at all beyond perhaps the showing of an attractive face, and flaws in the edits of others. She's at best the default winner, who wins when others lose, but the editors have given us no reason to care about her. She doesn't even have an overall tone, though I think it finally started in a negative direction this last episode (though many apparently don't even see that).
Relynn		#2047	[-]
Posts: 61 (11/05/07 2:44 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Here's the thing about Amanda. I think that she's basically handicapped because others around her a bigger personalities. Todd, James, Courtney, JR, and Leslie So peharps in the beginning of the season there was really no need to show Amanda much. I mean pre merge Amanda had only been to tribal council, well twice. However, it seems to me that every episode lately, they are starting to show Amanda more, and whose to say that they won't show her more and more as the season progresses.. I agree so far they haven't made us care about Amanda, but whose to say that it won't change. I think to complain about Amanda being the possible winner now, is a bit ridiculous because we don't know how Amanda will be edited the rest of the season.
Kitty Pryde1		#2048	[-]
Posts: 390 (11/05/07 2:47 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	The thing is, Relynn, if Amanda IS the winner, then certainly the editors would make her stand out among all those big personalities. Danni had to contend with Amy, Gary, Blake, Bobby Jon, Steph, Judd, Jamie, and Brian, and yet she still was editted to be recognizable.
chaperone		#2049	[-]
Posts: 2186 (11/05/07 2:57 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Someone voted this week with the username "b". Anyone want to claim it? Blake? It came at 11/2/2007 3:49:15 PM Pacific Time. Edit: N/M I figured out who it was based on IP addresses...in the future, all please take care to put in your handle. Thanks! Last Edited By: chaperone 11/05/07 2:59 PM. Edited 1 times.
fat little fingers		#2050	[-]
Posts: 5035 (11/05/07 3:05 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Yeow! I just remembered to vote. Hope it's not too late, chap.
chaperone		#2051	[-]
Posts: 2187 (11/05/07 3:08 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I got it FLF...you were lucky though because I was busy improving the macro so I was a couple minutes late.
OnlyTheHunter		#2052	[-]
Posts: 1127 (11/05/07 3:08 PM) Edgician Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Relynn wrote I mean pre merge Amanda had only been to tribal council, well twice. Tom in Palau went once. It was the time and care they took editing him early that said something. It's easy to say the winner is "hidden" pre-merge but the winner isn't neglected to the nth degree pre-merge. I think I recall Amanda wanting a cultural experience. Problem is, we haven't heard anyone including her talk about her experience yet. Michael
chaperone		#2053	[-]
Posts: 2188 (11/05/07 3:12 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Overall Rankings MOR3 Amanda Kimmel OTTN? Courtney Yates ?1 Denise Martin UTR1 Erik Huffman UTR2 Frosti Zernow ??4 Jaime Dugan OTTP4 James Clement MORN3 Jean-Robert Bellande CP4 Peih-Gee Law CPN4 Todd Herzog Episode Rating Averages (From most to least) (INV=1, UTR=2, CP=3, MOR=4, OTT=5) 4.79 James Clement 4.43 Courtney Yates 4.43 Jaime Dugan 4.00 Jean-Robert Bellande 3.50 Amanda Kimmel 3.00 Peih-Gee Law 3.00 Todd Herzog 2.29 Frosti Zernow 2.00 Erik Huffman 1.50 Denise Martin Episode Tone Averages (From most to least) (NN=-2, N=-1, neutral=0, P=1, PP=2) 0.571 James Clement 0.143 Peih-Gee Law 0.071 Frosti Zernow 0.000 Denise Martin 0.000 Erik Huffman -0.143 Amanda Kimmel -0.429 Jaime Dugan -0.786 Courtney Yates -0.786 Todd Herzog -0.857 Jean-Robert Bellande Episode Visibility Averages (From most to least) 4.07 Jaime Dugan 4.07 James Clement 4.00 Todd Herzog 3.93 Peih-Gee Law 3.43 Jean-Robert Bellande 2.86 Amanda Kimmel 2.64 Courtney Yates 1.71 Frosti Zernow 1.00 Denise Martin 1.00 Erik Huffman Season Rating Averages (From most to least) (INV=1, UTR=2, CP=3, MOR=4, OTT=5) 4.64 Chicken Morris 4.33 Dave Cruser 4.19 Ashley Massaro 3.95 Jean-Robert Bellande 3.66 Courtney Yates 3.62 James Clement 3.52 Aaron Reisberger 3.41 Leslie Nease 3.24 Sherea Lloyd 3.21 Todd Herzog 3.13 Jaime Dugan 3.00 Frosti Zernow 2.98 Peih-Gee Law 2.79 Amanda Kimmel 2.51 Erik Huffman 2.38 Denise Martin Season Tone Averages (From most positive to least) (NN=-2, N=-1, neutral=0, P=1, PP=2) 0.398 Leslie Nease 0.386 Denise Martin 0.288 James Clement 0.169 Amanda Kimmel 0.160 Frosti Zernow 0.135 Erik Huffman 0.027 Aaron Reisberger -0.022 Peih-Gee Law -0.033 Todd Herzog -0.088 Jaime Dugan -0.158 Ashley Massaro -0.261 Courtney Yates -0.318 Sherea Lloyd -0.409 Chicken Morris -0.452 Dave Cruser -0.481 Jean-Robert Bellande Season Visibility Averages (From most to least) 4.73 Chicken Morris 4.17 Ashley Massaro 4.11 Dave Cruser 3.85 Leslie Nease 3.53 Todd Herzog 3.39 Jean-Robert Bellande 2.93 Peih-Gee Law 2.83 James Clement 2.81 Aaron Reisberger 2.71 Jaime Dugan 2.49 Courtney Yates 2.44 Sherea Lloyd 2.36 Amanda Kimmel 2.08 Frosti Zernow 1.72 Erik Huffman 1.62 Denise Martin MOR differencial (Sum difference from middle of road for total season) 0.11 Peih-Gee Law 0.51 Jaime Dugan 0.74 Aaron Reisberger 0.77 Todd Herzog 1.02 Amanda Kimmel 1.08 James Clement 1.09 Frosti Zernow 1.13 Sherea Lloyd 1.43 Courtney Yates 1.65 Leslie Nease 1.82 Jean-Robert Bellande 1.90 Erik Huffman 2.39 Denise Martin 2.51 Ashley Massaro 2.89 Dave Cruser 3.77 Chicken Morris Edgic Losers (Percentage of possible loser votes) 92.31% Denise Martin 92.31% Frosti Zernow 84.62% Erik Huffman 84.62% James Clement 84.62% Jean-Robert Bellande 53.85% Courtney Yates 15.38% Amanda Kimmel 7.69% Todd Herzog 0.00% Peih-Gee Law Edgic Winners (Percentage of winner votes received) 46.15% Peih-Gee Law 23.08% Amanda Kimmel 23.08% Todd Herzog 0.00% Courtney Yates 0.00% Denise Martin 0.00% Erik Huffman 0.00% Frosti Zernow 0.00% James Clement 0.00% Jean-Robert Bellande Close Calls Rating Denise Martin INV (50%), UTR (50%), CP (0%), MOR (0%), OTT (0%) Jaime Dugan INV (0%), UTR (0%), CP (7.1%), MOR (42.9%), OTT (50%) Tone Jaime Dugan NN (0%), N (50%), neutral (42.9%), P (7.1%), PP (0%)(note: 4 out of 6 neutral votes were for dynamic) Visibility Courtney Yates 1 (0%), 2 (50%), 3 (35.7%), 4 (14.3%), 5 (0%) Total Voters: 14 (I forgot to vote myself...and didn't get to watch a 2nd time)
Kitty Pryde1		#2054	[-]
Posts: 391 (11/05/07 3:15 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Jaime was probably M because they made her look completely stupid, but they didn't villify her in the editting, and in conjuction with that, I'd says she's definitely OTT, given how one note her stupidity was shown to be. Denise was INV, no doubt about it. She had a few lines saying stuff about Jeff coming to camp, but other than that we didn't even see her, and she wasn't even on-screen when she said it. Courtney was a three for the beginning where she talked about how she felt about J-R sticking around, not to mention her interactions with Zhan Hu and talk about the feast.
speedyforme		#2055	[-]
Posts: 5474 (11/05/07 3:35 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	OnlyTheHunter wrote: Relynn wrote I mean pre merge Amanda had only been to tribal council, well twice. Tom in Palau went once. It was the time and care they took editing him early that said something. It's easy to say the winner is "hidden" pre-merge but the winner isn't neglected to the nth degree pre-merge. I think I recall Amanda wanting a cultural experience. Problem is, we haven't heard anyone including her talk about her experience yet. Michael exactly, didn't Amber only go twice pre-merge? Chapera and then with the switch? didn't Yul only go twice as well? didn't Aras only go twice as well?
OnlyTheHunter		#2056	[-]
Posts: 1128 (11/05/07 3:48 PM) Edgician Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Rating Denise Martin INV (50%) INV - Invisible 1) Irrelevant, no confessionals or tribal council questions in the early episodes, little or no confessionals or tribal council questions in the mid to late episodes. 2) The player's editing was insignificant to any character development. The only thing missing on page 1 is a Warrior/flf vidcap of Denise's picture Jaime Dugan OTT (50%) I don't know. I lean toward OTT now but forget how I voted. With boots, I don't know if I clouding my judgement knowing they were out of the game. In this one episode, she compared herself to Jessica Simpson, and proved she was as dumb as they took her for in the edit. So OTT works, but MOR isn't wrong either, is it? Tone Jaime Dugan neutral (42.9%),note: 4 out of 6 neutral votes were for dynamic) I believe I voted neutral, not Mixed or N. Since I can't ignore the N votes and Mixed votes so far ahead, I can't stay with that. I think it definitely has elements of N. My initial neutral rating was based on the idea that it made sense to the viewer that she should go, but not that did any one thing this episode. Since the rating is contained to this episode I have to say Mixed. She was dumb, foolish, unknowing, but she wasn't Jean-Robert either. Visibility Courtney Yates 2 (50%) Probably a vote away from a 2, and we're so past the old days when an OTT2 was supposed to be impossible. It's very possible, and exact in this case. Michael
TheLurkerSpeaks		#2057	[-]
Posts: 1006 (11/05/07 3:52 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	All right, this is getting ridiculous. Why is James getting OTTP? He's hardly been a simple caricature over the last couple episodes. It's like somebody decided that he was the OTTP hero three episodes ago and thus would always be edited as such, and everybody else has just followed suit. An OTTP would tend to have no shades of gray. They certainly don't call other contestants "b**" no matter how much else we might like them. If they have a hero storyline, that's all they have - they don't laugh at other's stupidity behind their backs. Their edit is focused on themselves and on whatever aspect makes them OTTP. Three episodes ago, James arguably had that. He was in a vulnerable situation that was clearly meant to be seen as unfair by the editors, and he refused to play along with the perpetrators. That's arguably OTTP. Two episodes ago, the edit instead revolves around Todd's plan to save James with the immunity idol. While we are clearly meant to like James, the most powerful image of the episode is his conflict between losing the immunity and sparing the embarrassment for his closest ally Denise. Once James has the idol, the very situation that leant itself to OTTP editing is done. He's no longer vulnerable, and he's instead operating in the role of taking the offensive instead by doing the very thing he had gotten upset about. It's not an OTTP edit - it is either MORP or even CPP. This last episode, any conceivable threat to James from Jaime and Peih Gee is gone. Not only does the merge remove all their power, but we see Peih Gee talking about how she genuinely likes James and would like him on their side. With both real immunity idols, he's now the most powerful player in the game in some respects. That's not a hero figure. Heroes certainly don't gloat about their enemies' misfortunes or slam their allies as b** and dum****. And his comments aren't about himself or his situation anymore - they are about everybody else! He provides more insight into his thoughts on other people than anyone else this episode. Maybe it isn't CP since there isn't much conflict involved here - his opinion is what it is, but it certainly isn't one note OTTP editing. Heck, it isn't even P editing. Yes, maybe we're supposed to share his delight at the oncoming fall of Jaime, but that doesn't mean we're supposed to approve of his growing cocky attitude and belittling of his teammates (no matter how little we like Jean-Robert and Courtney). Last Edited By: TheLurkerSpeaks 11/05/07 3:54 PM. Edited 1 times.
Warrior		#2058	[-]
Posts: 2349 (11/05/07 4:27 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Close Calls:
island sun		#2059	[-]
Posts: 404 (11/05/07 5:01 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Sorry all...rough weekend for me. I'll just do close calls. Courtney - 2 Visibility Denise - INV (She was irrelevant. Considering it's a merge and everyone should be heightening their game, Denise was shown doing nothing. Compared to everyone else, she was totally invisible. Look at Erik, he was UTR1. Was Denise really as memorable as Erik?) Jaime - OTTM (Tough rating, but I at least felt bad for her after she played the "idol". Though, her stupidity in thinking it was the real thing gave her a little N, so I think it was a mixed tone. Also, the OTT comes from her being associated with the fake idol more than anything, one-dimensional.) I'll be sure to get my ratings up this next week. Something happened over the weekend where I just had to clear my mind for a while. I couldn't focus much on anything else. I apologize for my absence.
astroline		#2060	[-]
Posts: 497 (11/05/07 5:07 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Damn! I forgot to vote too. It always comes up so soon. Close calls... Courtney - 3 Denise - UTR Jaime - M (if she can't get a P...)

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